Themes: sisters, ballet, childhood, creative writing, friendship, collaboration, comparison     



This interview has been condensed and edited. All references to specific names and universities have been removed and/or replaced with a 1-second sound gap.

Rachel: Can you just introduce yourself for the recording, however you feel comfortable.

I: Yes. I am a twin and an artist.

I was born in Washington, DC at the Georgetown Hospital, November 1993. And I was born 57 minutes before my sister, so we were not that close in terms of timing. She was breeched, so the doctor opted to turn her around in my mother's stomach as opposed to doing a C-section.

But also my water broke before hers, so I've always been, in life, just ready to do things at a faster pace than she is. So she wanted to stay in the womb longer, but because my water already broke, it was time to move things along. And then it was the same thing in the birthing process. I was ready to come out and she needed a little bit more time and a little bit of, like, a push to get her out, and then she came out.

Rachel: Okay. So this has been a story that's followed you both in your lives.

I: Yes. Yeah. I feel, yeah.

Rachel: Okay. Interesting. Can you just tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up in your family?

I: Yeah. Our parents were really good at making sure that we were treated as individuals. It was never “the twins” or, I mean other people would put that name on us, but our parents always treated us as individuals. And then they also made sure we understood what it meant to be sisters and what that bond was as twins, which is interesting cause neither one of them are twins.

But the way that they've handled it, in my opinion, has been perfect because they let us know that you are two different people and we see you as that. But then they would also make sure that they were even down the middle of everything that they did for us. Our dad would like literally cut napkins in half for breakfast and be like, “Look, they're the exact same,” or count the strawberries and be like, “You both got four strawberries and they're the same size.”

So there was never any difference or feeling like, why did she get this and I didn't. They also were really, especially our mom, was really clear about you never let anything come between the bond that you have, no other person or nothing, and you always love each other and look out for each other. And that's something that we both took really seriously. So even today, like the utmost importance to me is that she's taken care of in our relationship and then also outside of it. And I can be very protective of her.

Rachel: Do you have other siblings?

I: No, just the two of us.

Rachel: Did you have separate time with your parents or was it more everything shared and equal?

I: It was everything shared, yeah. Even, we always shared a bedroom too, so I've never slept separately from her. Like we have different beds, but it's always been the same room. same bathroom all the time. So everything was shared and then time with our parents was also shared. Unless—I accidentally pushed her off the toilet when we were kids and we were standing on top of it and she cut her chin and she had to go to the emergency room without me.

And I was like, wait, why do I have to stay home? Why can't I go with her? That was a moment where she was with my mom by herself and I was with my dad by myself that I remember, but it was always just like, the four of us would always be together or they would be taking us to a dance rehearsal or something, but she was always with me.

At school they always separated us, so we were in different classes. And that happened from like first grade onward. We were never in the same classes after that. So the school system made sure that we were separated, but also like—even in the household, even though we were always together, I just always knew who I was separate from her. I didn't know how my parents did it, but I always, always felt distinctly like I____. They knew my character traits and they let me be who I was and they let her be who she was.

And you know, obviously we're two different people, so two different personalities, but because they let us be exactly who we were, even though I was always with her, I never felt like this is a unit. I still felt like I was separate even in our relationship to each other.

Early on she was always stuck to my mom's hip. Every photo we have, it's just the two of them together. And I'm like, where am I? And they're like, you just ran off somewhere. So I was always going and exploring and just moving. And my parents let me do that. And A____ was always really up under my mom. And that gave her a sense of security. And that's just how we move in life today too. Like I, I'm ready to go, like immediately. And her pacing is just, take a little bit more time, figure it out. And that's just kind of how it's always been. I think we walked around the same time, but when we were still crawling, I did this thing called the sidewinder where I had a specific way of going up and down the stairs that enabled me to move wherever I wanted to go. And my sister would not do that. It was just me. And so at a very young age, I was like, okay, cool. They're gonna let me do my thing and not be like, no, wait, stop. So it gave me the freedom to explore.

Our parents were really good at letting us do what we wanted to do and they never put anything on us. They just watched us to see how we would behave. So when we were kids, she went through her phase where she would just take all my toys and my mom would not do anything cuz she just wanted to see how is I____ gonna respond?

And I would just let her take my toys and I wouldn't say anything. And that was it. Or like if we fell, they would not be like "huh!", they would wait and see if we were gonna cry first, just to see how we innately reacted. And then they would never like say, this is what I____does versus A____.

Rachel: it sounds like at home you had this very intuitive dynamic. But at school you said you were separate.

I: Yes.

Rachel: What was that like?

I: the reason why they did it was cuz they wanted us to have separate personalities and develop differently. Which I was like, that's interesting cuz they're telling us more about how we ought to grow up that's different than how our parents told us.

So they were already placing something on us, which is the assumption that we were already assuming that we were one, and this idea that like you have to be separated or else you're not gonna grow into individuals. So I thought that was interesting. But socially, I'll be completely honest and say that I rely on my sister socially all the time and I'm a lot more reserved. So being in separate classes, the stereotypes that other kids put on me was that I was really shy or really serious and they never, always got to see my personality because I, I think it was both the security of knowing that I had someone that was already my best friend. So I didn't feel the need to find friends outside of that. But I was also just more cautious socially than my sister is. She's very outgoing, and so people are drawn to her. And then I'm more quiet and so people misinterpret my being quiet as like, I'm sour, or I'm the evil twin, or I'm not as nice. And so people would gravitate more towards her.

And I would have certain friends that I really like, but I'm always very particular about my friends. I'll have like one or two really good friends as opposed to being like, I'm gonna talk to everyone in my class. I was never that person and I never have been. We kind of balance each other out. So like if we're both hanging out with a friend together and she's having a really funny, loud day, I'll lower my energy so that we're not both matching it and then, even together, like if I'm having a louder day or I'm feeling a little more raucous or whatever, then she'll come down here so that we're not both at the same level. We're always doing that. We literally did that last weekend. She was having like a comedy hour moment for like 72 hours and I was like, great, so I'm gonna go down here cause you're up here. And then it always switches depending on the day. So I can be very loud and talkative. It just depends on the person and I think I'm more choosy about who I wanna give myself to. I guess that's the difference is I choose, like, do I like this person enough to show them who I am? Or am I okay with going a little bit back and receding and saying I know who I am and I have a twin who knows who I am and that's fine. So I don't have to like prove anything to anyone.

Rachel: Is this something you consciously think about when you're balancing each other out? Or does it just happen and then you reflect on it later and you realize...

I: It just happens. Yeah, because I think that we've been in situations where we see people be overwhelmed by talking to both of us at the same time. You can see it in their face where they're like, bewildered, and so it always makes us feel bad cause you're like, oh, maybe we both came on too strong at once. That's the only time I'm cognizant of it.

If I see someone's face kind of change or their energy pulls back and then you're like, oh, I'm gonna go really quiet and let her do the talking so that they feel like they're only talking to one person as opposed to two. Cause sometimes you can see 'em go back and forth like ping pong with their eyes and you're like terrified for them and the experience that they're having.

So out of kindness one of us will just be like, I'm just gonna pull back right now so that they don't get really just flustered.

Rachel: Is that okay for you? Do you ever think: what is it about us, two people that is so overwhelming to you?

I: Look, I'll say like, if anyone's gonna be my best friend, they also have to be close with my sister. That's just how I feel about it. So we share many of the same friends in common and we do hang out. It will be the three of us. And those friends are very good at allowing us to talk over each other or talk at the same time, or not. They're very good at doing that in a way where we don't feel like it's too much for them and we can just express ourselves freely. With new people, they're thinking it's the same person twice, and then that's already like making them dizzy.

And then on top of that we can both be really just like, bright at the same time. I never wanna be the person that's too much. I feel like A_____ is okay with being too much. For me, it makes me cringe inside. I'm always reading other people and, maybe it's because I am a twin, but I'm always cognizant of how they're seeing me or how they're seeing us, and then I move according to how they feel.

I don't really consider, well, maybe I wanted to keep on talking or whatever. I just consider, like, to keep the peace in the situation or to make it like a positive situation for everyone, I will just bend and move, cause I'm used to doing that in this relationship.

Rachel: When you are in a space that's your own space and you're not being seen as a twin or perceived as a twin, is there more freedom for you? What's the difference?

I: Honestly, I don't feel more freedom. It feels the same for me either way. I'm just cognizant of the fact that somebody will get to know me faster if I'm with my sister than if I'm not with her. It'll take me a lot more time to open up because I do use her, like, she makes me feel safe. So if we're going into a new situation where we don't know anybody, and at least I have her, I'll feel more like I can be myself. But for instance, going to graduate school, we went to separate schools, and so there was no twin at that point. And I really did not have like any friends in graduate school. And it was a mix of the people just, they weren't my people. I didn't feel that sort of kinship with them. But I was also very cognizant of the fact that I am not opening up right now and it's because I don't feel like it but also I don't have my buddy here to like make me feel more open. So they're not gonna get the most open version of me unless there's someone that I really resonate with who is open. if someone's more open, like my sister, I find I'll open up to them faster. But if someone is more closed off or shy like me, I probably will not talk to them.

Rachel: What was the social dynamic like between you and your sister? If she's more outgoing, better at making friends. How did your social lives evolve?

I: Uh, her friends became my friends (Laughs). That was pretty much it. So I'm always just like, yeah, if she's vetted this person, she likes them enough, I will just adopt you as my friend too. But I, I'm, I'm just choosier. So I'll be like, okay, A_____ likes you, so you passed one layer of the test. But then I get to decide when I meet you, do I like you? And then if I do, then I'll really just take her friends. Like, that's how it's pretty much always worked. She's like, introduce me to your friends, and I'm like, eh, I don't really have any (Laughs). I have associates.

Rachel: Associates. Was she always okay with that? With you, quote, taking her friends?

I: Yeah, she was fine with it. I think that when it did come to graduate school, that's when she was like, you're benefiting from my friends that I found, but I'm not getting to know like anyone at ______. Because I was just like, they're having parties but I'm just not gonna show up. And so she would get upset cause she was like, I feel like I'm not getting into your world. And I was like, yeah, I just don't feel like there is a world. We'll like, go on a vacation and we'll go with her friends. And I'll always be like, yeah, they're your friends. And if I know them well enough, they can be our friend. But mostly I'm just like, that's your friend group. And then my friends, I don't really feel that strongly about them the way that she feels about her friends. The way we also build friendships is very different. She's all in and gives that person everything. That's just not how I approach friendships.

I think that that's how I approach a relat— like a romantic relationship, but not a friendship because, I don't need a friendship is how I feel. Like if you're not gonna be the most amazing person in the world and I already have my twin, then I'm not really looking for anything. So if someone hits me and I'm like, wow, this is a really special person, then I'll put in the effort. But I'm kind of just like resting on my laurels just like, yeah, if it happens, it does. And if not, I'm happy either way. And I kinda like being left alone cause I just like silence. So I feel like it's okay. But sometimes you do have moments where she is like, wait, why? And then I'm like, yeah, but that's just not how I'm built. Like I just think I'm a little bit different.

Rachel: When you become friends with someone who you met through your sister, does it feel like they are coming to you and understanding you as an individual? Or is there something that they bring to their relationship with you based on the fact that they knew your sister first?

I: Yeah, I think her good friends, they treat me as an individual so they take the time to learn me. And then the people that are not her good friends, they do treat me as like an iteration of A_____. So they think the jokes that they've had with her or whatever, the rapport will transfer to me, which is the most uncomfortable thing cause it's like, I wanna be able to laugh with you, but I wasn't there for that and I'm genuinely not that person. And so I think when they do take the time to understand that I will be quieter upfront and I'm, it's not that I'm trying to be rude, I'm just trying to figure out where we're at. People that like expect me to be more like A_____, I'll just kind of not talk to them at all, which is always my plan A, which is like, if I'm not into it, I just will not engage and then she'll have to do more of the heavy lifting socially,

It puts a lot of onus on her to keep up the conversation and make sure there's a good flow. Whereas I'm just kinda like, if the flow wasn't there to begin with, I will just remove myself so that I'm physically present, but emotionally, energetically I'm elsewhere.

My thing is like, you guys have a good time and don't worry about me. I wanna give them space to be who they are together and recognize that the way that two people relate is not the way that three people relate. If I really like them, I'll engage more. But I think sometimes her friends will read that differently when I give them space. They see it as me being like, I don't wanna be a part of this. I'm not interested. Where I'm just trying to be gracious and say like, I'm acknowledging the fact that you guys were friends first.

Rachel: So what was it like, when you were in these different spaces in school? And then, you're both having different experiences it sounds like, but then you come home.what was that interaction or dynamic like between you two?

I: The biggest thing I remember is that's when we got cell phones and everybody was texting and her phone would be just blowing up, people would be texting her all this stuff. And I have no texts in my phone (Laughs). And I'd be like, wait, who's texting you? What are they saying? And she's like, if you spoke to people more then maybe they'd text you.

And I just felt so bad cause I was like, I feel that I'm being asked to be someone that I'm not, I felt there was also the comparison with people of like, well, if A_____ is so happy-go-lucky and warm and affable and charming, then why can't you be the same way?

And it's like, if I—if they had never known that A_____ existed, it was just me, then would it be more okay for me to be quiet? Because it's in comparison to someone who's making you laugh all the time. I think that there's always a narrative in my mind of if people both know us, they would prefer her over me. And that's always what runs in the back of my mind.

Even when we have mutual friends, sometimes if we all hang out together, I'll be like, Hey, you were talking a lot tonight. I just feel like I couldn't get a word in edgewise. Because sometimes they get on a roll and I just feel like I'm, uh, witnessing it, but I'm not participating in it. But I also don't want her to stop being who she is. So I feel that sometimes that is a narrative I create for myself, but I try to break. But I do always ask, do you think I spoke enough? Do you think that I made enough jokes? Do they think I'm funny? Because enough people told me in middle school and high school that I had a sour face or that they thought I was a very serious person, and that's not at all who I was. So to be misread on a pretty consistent basis by people let me know that I wasn't, like—I was aware that I wasn't leading with my best foot, but I also just wasn't interested. I don't wanna perform for you.

Like I don't ever walk into a room, thinking I'm the most charming person in the room. I pretty much am like, I'm gonna be a person who doesn't talk at all. And that's gonna be how you remember me. And then my very close friends will know that I am the complete opposite of that. But I have to be okay with the narrative of like, she's very quiet, she's very shy, and then whatever else they think on top of that. But it's never positive attribution.

Rachel: You hinted at this a little bit, but do you think that the narrative of very quiet, very shy, is because you have a twin sister who is not those things?

I: I just know that people always compare us—obviously as twins growing up—always compare us, of like, well if you're this then the other person has to be the complete opposite of that. And because I let her lead socially. I'm like, take it. I don't want it, take the reins. I think that people make assumptions about if she's all these wonderful things, then you have to be the opposite of that. I was always the evil twin. I'm like, I don't even know how I can be evil, but okay, that's fine.

But it was always like, who's—that's the first question—who's the good twin and who's the evil twin? And then like they would talk to A_____ enough and be like, well I_____ must be the evil twin.

Rachel: Is this something people actually would say to you? "The evil twin"?

I: Oh, all the time. when they would even first meet us growing up, they'd be like, so who's the evil twin? First five minutes. And we'd be like, no one. And they'd laugh and they'd be like, we're gonna find out eventually. Like, what? And it turns you off because you're like, what? Like that's not—that dichotomy, that's not real. We're nuanced people. There is no good and bad. But we've had people that have honestly been like, some sort of FBI investigation where they're like, we're gonna find out which one of you is whatever. And you're like, what? Why can't we both be nice people? Why does it have to be one is warm, one is cold, one is this, one is the other? And other people made that—that's just how they saw us. So if A_____ leads on one foot, because I'm falling back all the time, I'm not choosing to present myself. Then by default I am the opposite thing. I'm always the thing that's not what you would want.

And my sister's always very good at giving me verbal affirmation. So she'd be like, you know what? It's not true though. And she'll say things like that. So it's not that I believe it, but it just makes me shut down more of that person because they're not seeing me for who I am. They're making a value judgment upfront and knowing that I'm already reserved, it means that I then do not want to open myself up to you at all. it shows how you think of me already, or how you think of us as twins. So why would I ever wanna be a whole person in front of you?

Rachel: Can you remember some specific examples of when people made those, judgements or opinions of you known?

I: I think when I mostly see how they're seeing us differently, even if they don't say it out loud, is through eye contact. So if we're all free in a conversation, you're making more eye contact with her than me, then that's when I will be like, okay, they feel more comfortable with her.

So they're really having the full conversation with her. Even if I'm talking, they're still looking at her. Then I'll just go quiet. Cause I'm like, oh, well you weren't really comfortable with me if I don't wanna make you uncomfortable by continuing to talk when it's clear that you have a preference.

Rachel: I'm curious if you're with a friend, do you still register these kinds of social dynamics? Like are you looking for eye contact when you're with a group of three, two other people?

I: No. No, I don't care. I could care less if she's not there. It doesn't, I don't, yeah, it's like, it's fine. You look where you look, but it's just something that I think I'm more sensitive to because I'm always with her. If I'm in a group with other people, I don't even care at all. Maybe I'll be a little bit more keyed in just because I feel like I'm more socially sensitive because I am a twin, but it's not in the same way that I'm reading it.

When we're together, I'm reading it to be like, are we doing okay for them? Whereas if I'm by myself, it's like, is everyone doing okay? And maybe that sensitivity does come from always wanting to read people to make sure that we're not, I dunno, that we're performing to what they want. Which is like, you're nice but you're not too much and don't talk over each other. But if you can see in their eyes or their body language, they're uncomfortable, that for me—maybe I'm too empathetic—it just kills me. I can't stand that. So I'll just do whatever I need to do to make sure they're okay.

Rachel: So it sounds like growing up you adopted this sense that your twinness was almost a burden for other people, or overwhelming. Do you remember some early lessons on that?

I: It was not one moment where I was like, oh, we have to stop being who we are. There was just kind of a continual thing where you can just see a person kind of lose it or just tap out and you see their soul like go into the ether (Laughs). And so, my reaction is, I'm going to not talk to you so that you feel more comfortable. Cause I think there's maybe too much energy. Having two people stare at you alone is scary for people. To have both of us be present in that moment, because then you feel like four eyes are on you instead of two.

So I think our responses are different to how we're going to navigate a person being overwhelmed. And my thing is always like, peace. Just be quiet. That way you can't be bewildered anymore.

Rachel: I'm curious how this registers physically. Are you and A_____ very similar looking? Do you have the same way of moving around the world?

I: Yeah, we dress very different. Her style is a lot freer and wilder than mine is. And mine is a bit more, I'll say conservative, but I don't really mean it that way. It's just more streamlined. I'm interested in things that are neater, more timeless. She'll take some wild chances and I'll be like, are you sure you wanna wear that today? And so I think that also tells people two different stories about who we are. When we were growing up, our style was more similar. And then from undergrad onward it changed. So how people are reading us is different. Hers is more loose. It's just very free. So I think people read that she's a very outgoing, free, open, affable, kind of wherever-the-wind-blows type of person, which is not entirely true.

And then with me, the way that I dress tells them, and also my body language—I'm aware that I cross my arms a lot, I cross my legs. Which is just telling people “do not approach me.” And her body language is very legs open, arms here, so that people know to approach you.

So I think that like, that physically reads different to people when we're sitting down and then,  how we dress, they make different assumptions. And then also how we wear our hair. I prefer my hair a lot shorter. So I had a buzz cut for like three years. And then that also changed how people read our twinship remarkably, because all of a sudden it was like we weren't twins anymore. We were just sisters or cousins. And we're like, so the hair was the cue, not the face or anything else? And then even in that, because she has a lot longer hair, men would approach me and be like, I'm interested in your sister, not you. because of your hair. And I was like, why does it have to be one or the other? Do either one of us find you attractive? Like, so they would say some wild things And they'd be like, “Did you shave your hair so that people could tell the difference between the two of you?” And I hated that question, cause I was like, did I change my physical appearance for people that I do not know? No, I did not. But the fact that you actually think a twin would do that lets me know that you think we perform to a general public who doesn't understand our psychology at all.

Rachel: What do you think it was about, undergrad being the time when you—you were in the same school with different classes?

I: Yes.

Rachel: And then same for high school.

I: Yeah.

Rachel: And then undergrad, did you go to the same—

I: We did. Went to the same college. We were roommates the four years, but we had mostly different classes, but our major was the same. So then sometimes we do have classes together, and I don't mind having classes with my sister. I just don't like the way that people treat us when we're in classes together. We've had teachers out loud compare our poetry to each other in front of the class and be like, well, we both heard about horses, so what's going on with horses? And we're like, I'm sorry, what? And she would literally compare every single line or what the similarities were. And then everybody else in the class was like, jumping on the bandwagon.

And I, I was about to lose it. Like, we're not happy at all. Because you would never compare any other students work together. And all of a sudden, because we have the same last name and we're twins, you feel that it's appropriate to not allow us to have distinct voices on the page, just looking at the similarities, looking at the way if they're one as opposed to two. And then that's when we were both like, I love you–don't love the situation. So as many classes we can have separate, let's just do that. Because apparently other people can't conduct themselves accordingly.

Rachel: Yeah. And you're also missing out on the process of actually having your work evaluated in a way that anyone else would.

I: Exactly. They'd be like, tell me, I'm seeing a throughline here, what happened in your childhood? The things that people were saying, it was infuriating.

Cause I like having class with her. I like sitting next to her. I like hearing her talk or being able to read her poems. But I was also aware that when we are critiquing each other's work, because I am her twin, if I give her too many compliments, it seems like I'm doing it because we're related. And also I'm not gonna rail into her work in front of other people. I'll tell you that in private cause I respect you.

But there were definitely times where if people were like railing in really hard and if it was unwarranted, I would just come for their necks and be like, we're not gonna do that today and you can call me what you wanna call me, but we're not gonna do that today. And so I was very aware that at that moment, I am being your twin sister and I'm going to stand up for you in a way that I would not do for someone else who I'm not related to in that way.

But most of the time I tried not to do that so that people would see us as two students who just happened to be from the same family. That's it.

Rachel: So you both were interested in the same things naturally.

I: Yes.

Rachel: And you felt like you could and should pursue those things even though the other person was. Did that ever create any tension or conflict?

I: Um, not within us, but definitely for dance growing up. And this is like more of A_____’s thing to tell, cause it happened to her. People would compare us all the time and they would say things to her like, “Did your sister take all the talent in the womb?” You know, because as dancers we're two very different people. Our movement qualities are very different. And then our approach is different. Like, I attack things more than she does. That's just our personality traits. It's the thing of like growing up and like I'm ready to go. And she's not. That transfers into art too. Like, if I really want something, I'm passionate about it. Everyone in the room's gonna know that. And her thing is a bit more laid back, and so people would mistake her being laid back for being a lazy dancer. You're not trying hard enough. Why can't you be like your sister? And they said it enough times where she actually started to believe that she wasn't good enough.

But because we were so young, we were not ever talking about it. So I see it happening, I see the comparisons. They're saying it in front of everybody else in the classroom, multiple teachers from five years old up until undergrad. And those comparisons are like, definitely took an emotional toll on her. And it was something that I can't stop. I can't stop the teacher from saying that. I can't stop them from reading a situation like this. They thought it was gonna put a fire under her and it did the complete opposite where it shut her down more.

But then my thing was like, what am I supposed to do? Like I would tell her that's not true, but like you can see that it affected her and it sort of like compiled over the years. The way I always saw dance is, like, we're two separate people. So when I go into the room—not to be like do-or-die, but really ballet is—I was like, I fight for myself and you have to fight for yourself.

I can't fight for you because it's literally your body, it does what you will it. And my body does what I will it. This is one situation where I cannot stand up for you. You have to be able to fight for yourself. And I think that our fight was just different. and if they sensed a little bit of weakness, they preyed on it.

And that didn't add tension to our relationship, but I think that sometimes she would get upset by how committed I was to dance. Like I was like, I gotta stretch outside of class. I gotta do all these things. And for her it was kind of like, why would I do those things if they're just gonna tell me how terrible I am all the time? Like why even try anymore? And so that was a little bit of tension, but she never resented me for it, to her credit, at all. We understood that like it wasn't anything I was doing wrong, and it wasn't anything she was doing wrong. We're just two different people. And for some reason, the narrative that a lot of teachers had was we've got twins, and they’re like operating differently—you have to comment on that operation and you have to pull one down to bring the other up.

I don't know, like, it never made me feel better. It made me feel worse. And then people were staring at me in class like I was the bad person because I was being lifted up on a pedestal and she wasn't. But then at the same time I was like, what am I supposed to do? Like the only way I can cope with it is to do better so that it makes both of us look good. But with dance, it literally doesn't do that. It just like furthers a divide in their mind. So I wasn't, I didn't know how to navigate that. And that's one of the things we spoke about for the first time, like a month ago, where she cried. Because she was like, it really did affect me. And I apologized for not knowing how to be there for her emotionally because we were both like—it was hard. Ballet was really like, you're getting critiqued all the time. They're telling you constantly how terrible you are. Like anything wrong with you, we know by the time you're like 10, you're like, “Got it. I know what I'm not good at. Tell me what I am good at.” So we're both going through it, but hers was different, and I'm still trying to fight for myself and she's trying to fight. But just realizing that she's a bit more tender than I am too. And I didn't know how to protect her. I didn't know how to, like, make her feel nurtured in that moment. Cause I was like, we both, we just gotta keep on fighting. But our capabilities for fighting and how we do that is very, very different.

So that wasn't like tension inwardly, but it did cause her to have this sort of narrative, that I don't agree with, that she still has to work through now because of what people put on her really just because we're twins. Cause if I was not in the room with her growing up, they would not have said any of those things at all. And she would've been like, I'm a great dancer. And she would've felt a lot more confident. So that's one of those things where I felt bad, where I'm like, the best thing we can do is not take class together. But then we had a teacher who taught both of us separately and when she found out we were twins. She went to A_____ and was like, “Your sister's more fire and you’re water. You gotta be more fire.” And then it's just like, nope, she's water though. You can't tell water to be fire, that's not how it works!

And she came back and told me and I was just like, well then you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Like, just don't go to the same school anymore? Like I don't know how that works. So yeah, that was one of those moments that was really hard because of what adults put on us.

Rachel: I'm curious about how that influenced your ability to take pride in what you were doing well. Cause obviously that's complicated. If you're doing well, it means that she's…So were you able to—

I: No. You didn't talk about the wins at all. Cause it was clear that I had the win, but it didn't feel good. And so you just don't talk about it. You're just like, okay, well I know that I'm doing well, but, um, if it causes someone else pain, like, I'm not gonna go home and tell my mom like, you know, Miss Miana said that I did duh, da da da da. Like, I'm not gonna say that. I’m just gonna be like, yeah, it was a good dance class. And then, you know, you just kind of let it go from there. It's good cause it was humbling. I couldn't boast about it. Not that that's in my nature, but it kind of felt—I didn't feel guilty for being good at something. It just felt kind of like I had the resentment of other people in the class because of how my sister was treated and they kind of put what the teacher said on me like it was my fault. like in the locker room. I felt that. So I just go quiet and whatever I feel about dance, I'll just use my body to tell you that in the classroom.

Rachel: So did you have concerns going into college and being in the same place and studying the same thing? That some of this might repeat itself?

I: No, because it's a lot bigger. So our thing was always like, let's just take completely separate classes. That way none of that stuff happens. And I think in college it was a lot healthier because we were taking completely different ballet classes, different modern classes. People knew that we were twins in the department cause it was small enough. But no comparisons were made even if we were in dance pieces together. And I think this is kind of cute, they would make us do duets together. But we got to shine together for the first time. We're getting utilized for our strengths together. And so I think that that for me felt more wholesome. But it also meant that sometimes choreographers wouldn't want to take us cause they felt like it was a package deal.

And they'd be like, I don't know if I really wanna commit to twins. And you're like, “Or you could just do it separately…” And we did have one choreographer who did that. We both auditioned and she chose me and not A____, and that furthered the narrative and rightfully so. My sister's pissed. Cause I was like, I think that we did the same amount of effort in that audition. I don't think there was anything different. I can't even tell you why she chose one of us over the other. I think sometimes they felt like, well, I like both of them, but I don't want two, so I'll just choose one.

And I don't know how they make that decision, but that was definitely another moment where I was like, this isn't great. And I can't come back and be like, rehearsal was lovely. But A_____ was also good about being like, I want you to feel comfortable to say “I did have a good rehearsal” and “I am getting this solo,” or whatever it is, without me feeling—cause like, she didn't take it out on me. She just didn't like the choreographer for the way that she moved about it. And then afterward the choreographer was like very awkward around A_____ if she saw her in the hallway. And that kind of like furthered the thing of, if you're gonna make that decision with twins, own it. Don't act like—don't hide behind your decision, because you know what you did when you chose one and not the other. You know what you did. And most people would choose both of us. And then either they'd have us dance together or they'd be like, I want you to dance on complete opposite sides of the room so no one knows that you're twins.

Rachel: Are there any ways in which you leaned into different things that you were good at so that there would be less to compare?

I: The one thing we did for creative writing, we both majored in poetry for undergrad and then our mom was like, well if you're gonna go and get your MFAs and they're both in poetry and it's a very wide applicant pool, but they can only choose 15 poets per year, then you are literally each other's direct competition. And then we’re like, just think about that. It really does mean at that point that even if they like both of you, they might be like two _________ sisters? I don't know, might just take one.

And so A_____ is also really good at fiction. I tried fiction, was terrible at it. She got a lot of praise for her fiction. And so my mom was like, just think about it. What if you switch to fiction? What does that feel like for you? No one pushed her into it. She says that we did, but we're like, you have free will. It was just an idea of like, don't be each other's direct comparison, because then people compare you even more.

And it seemed that in writing, bec— I guess cause we're the ones creating it, people compared our writing more than they did necessarily our dancing. They expect two different bodies to move differently, but for some reason they expect twin minds to write similarly. So they were always looking for how we were the same. And so that was something that we both felt. And so she did, she switched to fiction and now she is a fiction writer. And sometimes she's like, I never wanted to write fiction. I'm still a poet. And I'm like, yeah, and you can write poetry, that's fine. I'm just saying that I guarantee that if we have two books out, there's gonna be some person out there that's still gonna be like, what's the through line? What's like the narrative here? What was your childhood like? I'm not gonna pretend that we're not interested in writing similar things. But the way that we write it is very different. And so I think that's one decision where we're like, someone's gonna have to bow out in some way so that people don't have our identities constantly tied in as being one person.

Not because we see it that way, but because the world will not give us a fair shot otherwise.

Rachel: So when A_____ was getting praise for fiction, and you said your fiction sucked, what did that feel like for you? What does it feel like when A_____ succeeds?

I: I was very excited for her. People have told me that I'm good enough over the years where I have this sense of confidence that when I'm not good at something, I can take it on the chin and I can laugh at myself. Like I know I'm not good at certain things and I can laugh about it.

Whereas I feel like with her it's more sensitive. So whenever she gets that thing, I'm gonna rally behind her and be like, this is amazing. And it makes me, like, more emotional than when I get a win because I know what that means for her and I know what her experience has been in art in general.

Rachel: So to return to this college time. You said you started dressing differently in college—what other changes did that bring, being in a much bigger space?

I: Well, definitely the style changed. She thinks a lot more about style than I do, and it actually got to a point where her and my mom were like, you don't have any style, and that's kind of an issue. (Laughs) And I was like, I don't really care. That's kinda like, I don't, I, the way that I feel about it is that I'm strong in who I am as a person. Not that she's not, but I feel very strong about, like, I can have a very strong personality. Like if you really know me, it's a very strong personality. I'm fire all the way. So I feel like when I dress, I'm not looking to exude anything more than what's already within me. But for her, because she can be water, I feel that when she dresses, it gives more of a pop. So that you're like, there's something more there. And she takes more pleasure in it. And she's very detail oriented with only shopping vintage and I'm like, I don't care if I get it off a rack. Doesn't matter as long as I like it.

So that changed. And then in college… we had a lot of similar friends in college, So that's where we got some of our best friends and that's when it was always the three of us hanging out together. so I was grateful to actually be at the same college as her so that we could have best friends in common. Cause I think that that strengthens my bond with someone more so than if I have a bond with them by myself. That for me is a little bit more throwaway if I'm not crazy about it and she's not involved, I don't have to keep on showing up. I can just opt out.

Rachel: Is there something about a friend knowing your sister that makes you feel closer to that person too? It's not just that there's this accountability thing?

I: Yes, for sure. Yeah. it's like if I know that they love and accept my sister, then you'll get 200% of me. The litmus test is always like, if I introduce you to my sister, how do you behave? Cause I've had friends that have been very weird with her and I've been like, uh, not really that interested. Cause that was weird.and she wasn't into it. And if they're really great with her, then it'll make me feel even more of an affinity towards them. And that's just how it's always been. Where even with her friends, she'll want to introduce 'em to me. And how I interact with them means a lot to her in terms of how she interacts with them.

Rachel: What are your friends—the ones that end up sticking around—what is their reaction when they meet—they know you, and then they meet your sister.

I: I think being kind and open and not assuming anything about her because they know me. I think that's the best thing. Sometimes they've just been really awkward and they'll be like, hi. And then they'll just like walk away and I'm like, what are you doing? Have a conversation. Just be a human being around her. They've always been like male friends. They've just been weird.

And so I'll be like, that's just the friend that I hang out with outside of you entirely. And she'll always have a little feeling about it. And I'll always be like, that was really strange. And I'll give them multiple times just to be like, maybe now you're comfortable with the idea of there being another person that looks like me.

Rachel: Do you think it's because you look alike? Is that it?

I: Yes. Yes. I think that's exactly what it is. For some people it's either like, I've known this person my whole life because you look like I_____. Or it freaks them out where they're like, you look like something that I know, but I don't know you on the inside. And then they react accordingly and it you just, you learn a lot from a person when you introduce 'em to your twin.

Rachel: What about romantic relationships? How do you typically negotiate having that partnership, and then also your twinship.

I: I've never dated. I've never been in a romantic relationship. I think it's cause I am very reserved and also just kind of like, I've enjoyed being single and focusing on my career. So I've never actually had to navigate that. And that's something we talk about all the time cause we're like, what happens then? Cause I wouldn't want her to feel not special, but then I also have to commit to this other relationship. And that person is also very special to me, but just in very different ways. And that's something that I, I don't know how it's gonna go, what that's gonna like, feel like or be like for her and for me.

But one thing I know for sure is that whoever I date and my sister have to be best friends. Like, they should be comfortable hanging out without me. And that's a for sure, for sure. Where she should be like a sister for him too. And if that, I'm not saying you have to hang out all the time, I'm just saying like, if I'm outta town, feel free to hang out without me, I'm not gonna have any beef about it. But if they can't relate, that would be a huge, like, nope. Not interested.

Rachel: Because you have all these things in common, your interests are in common, but they haven't come without some tension or conflict, at least from the outside. How did you decide to collaborate on things? Can you tell me about that and what that process is like?

I: We've choreographed together and we fight all the time. (Laughs) Um, I think that there's this narrative for me of like, well, I'm a dancer first, and I'm a choreographer second, so I'm not really that invested in it compared to where she's a great choreographer. But I think there's always this thing of like, she wants to be the performer too, not just the person who's putting together the steps. So she has this thought process of I want you to put in as much as I do as a choreographer, and I want us to both dance and, and be seen as performers. And my thing is like, everyone has different roles. Some people are better choreographers than they are dancers and vice versa. And of course, I put forth my best effort.

I noticed that she's a way better choreographer than me and so why not have you take the lead on that as opposed to me muscling my way through something terrible for you to then say like, no, I don't like that. because she's really good at it, I'm asking her to lean into it. But she thinks I'm also saying you're not the dancer then. You're not the performer, you're the choreographer. And she doesn't want that role. She wants to be seen as well. And so I think that's where the tension lies. And then there comes a thing of like, well, this is my choreography versus your choreography. I'm always like, no, it's our choreography because we're doing it together. And so I think that she does take pride in those moments of like, well, I did this thing and this was a good thing that I did. And I'm always like, yes. But, teamwork though. Because then I completed the phrase. But I guess it's easy for me to say that as someone who's acknowledging that I'm kind of tagging along to her main experience. But I think that that tension, that's the only time we collaborate that it comes together. I've also been like, would you wanna write a book together? And she was like, yes, but not until way down the line so that we're not giving people ample opportunity to compare us. We would like to have completely separate literary careers. And then if we make the choice to collaborate, that's our choice. But that's not something that somebody else puts on us or expects because we're twins.

Rachel: How does it feel to finish something or to be working on something that you're thinking is going really great on your own, versus those more collaborative experiences?

I: It feels good because there's more ownership of it. I had to show up and I'm the one who did that thing and then there's a payoff for that. And so that feels really nice. But honestly, whatever she does on her own, I get more happiness from watching her succeed in that than I do when I do something. And that's just always how it's been. So when we collaborate together, it brings me so much joy because I'm getting to see her in real time, do this thing with me. Even if we're fighting, I don't care. I'm like, fine, I'll take it. I don't care. It just makes me happy to be able to see her in the studio. How she creates that makes me happy. Like she gets more emotional. I have my poetry collection's gonna be published this year, and when she found out, she cried and she was like, really? Like that meant a lot for her. And it would be the exact same for me for her. Like when she got her agent, I fully lost it. And I was like, this is a great day for everybody in the whole world.

That's just what our parents taught us. Is when she wins, I don't see it necessarily as my win, but like that win means so much more to me than when I win. Or if we can win together, that's the best. So I'm cool if I make a win, but I don't really talk that much about it. Maybe it is cause of ballet and it's just like, don't talk about the thing that you did good. But I very much enjoy like, being, doing things differently and seeing her in a dance piece without me. I love that cuz then I get to tell her what I loved about her performance as opposed to being in it with her.

Rachel: Right. The feeling is a little bit more simple in a way. Like uncomplicated and pure.

I: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. For sure.

Rachel: I think you mentioned when we were first talking, the way your experience of twinship has changed over time. How would you describe some of those evolutions?

I: I think having more emotional intelligence now, we know how to talk through things or acknowledge what happened as kids. You're still living through it. And I was not a huge talker growing up. I was just like, yeah, it happened and you just keep on fighting. And her thing was just very different cause she's just softer. And so I think that she needed to have those talks or to say it out loud, where I was just like, nope, just gotta go back into battle. It's just what qarriors do. And so that's just kind of also how we're different. So now that we're older, I'm able to tell her this is what I need out of communication and she's able to tell me what she needs and then I can mirror the behavior that she's asking me for to the best of my ability. And learning how to, like, more give and take as opposed to saying, this is just who I am, never gonna change. When I was younger, I'm like, this is just who I am. So if you don't like it, sorry. And that's not a healthy way to work. So I've learned in my relationship with her, that I hope I can take to romantic relationships, is how to be with someone and how to negotiate the fact that you are two very different people.

And even though we were in the same household growing up, the way that we move in the world and the way that we see the world is different. And so if I can't come to some sort of way of working with her as a team that works for both of us, then I'm being a selfish partner in this relationship. And so I'm learning how to be more selfless.

But I think being more open to work together and make sure that it's a healthy relationship and also talk more. Saying things we haven't said for years and then, you know, have that disagreement, but then keep on talking about it over and over again so that you come to the other side of it as opposed to leaving things unresolved. Actually just saying hey, you know what? I'm actually feeling this way about our relationship in general and I wanna talk about it now, even though I know it's not gonna make you feel good and it's not gonna make me feel good. We owe it to ourselves to say, this is how I see the situation. You tell me how you see it.

I repeat back what I'm hearing you say, you repeat back what you were hearing me say. And then we come to some sort of resolution that feels equal for both of us. And then I think also realizing, and this is a huge, what I tell her all the time is, life is never gonna be 50-50. So there's gonna be times where I'm gonna have to show up more in this relationship because she's got more on her plate or vice versa. And not not getting upset with the other person for not being able to show up in the same way that you are because they have other things happening in their life.

Cause I'm like, yes, we're twins. But our life paths are very different. Even though we do similar things, our jobs are different. The way that our work schedules are completely different. So there are certain things that she can show up for that I'm like, I don't have a bandwidth for it right now. Maybe five years I will, but right now I do not.

I think that's been a huge thing as twins, cause people always make it seem like it's even right?

And it's like, that's literally not how life works. I'm dealt cards that she's not dealt. I don't hate that she's not dealt that card. I don't want her to be dealt that card. But I need her to be more patient with me if I am being dealt a card that I'm still trying to work through. And then vice versa.

Rachel: But you are now at a point where you have these conversations out loud with each other.

I: Yes. Yeah. They'll be like three-hour long screaming matches. But yeah, we have—my thing is like, I'll tell the truth and I'm not, I don't mean as a judgment, I just mean it as like. this is how I see it. But because she's more sensitive, she takes it as a judgment. And so then that's when the miscommunication happens. So I have to like temper how I say things or when I say it so that she can take it better from me. And that's been a huge point of our relationship, is my bluntness reads cold. When I'm just trying to, like, help you by saying like, this is a trait I've seen that I don't think that you want to exhibit. But I'm not asking you to change. I'm just saying this is what I notice. And so I am learning how to speak in a different way where she can take it that is completely opposite to how I'm naturally built. And she also has to understand that I can only meet her a certain way there. I'm never gonna have the sweetest words when I just really need to say the thing out loud.

Rachel: Can you tell me a little bit about the time when you were leaving college. the transition from—we're in high school together, we're in college together, we live together. What happens then? How did you say, okay, now we are in the world. Where do we go?

I: Exactly. Uh, we were applying to jobs and we were like, look, we wanna be artists, but you can't just get outta college and be like I'm gonna make money off my art. That's not how it works. So we both bit the bullet and got nine-to-five jobs, but even that journey was different. I got a job immediately, within a matter of weeks, and she did not.

And so I was commuting from New Jersey to New York City for a year. And I hated that job. And I was crying like every single time I came home. It was so corporate. I had to wear, like, a button-down and slacks. And I'm like, who is this person? I hate her. She's not me. I'm the only person of color in my entire department of like 50 people. This is all very not it for me. And then her journey was, I still don't have work. So you know, like how can she support me emotionally when I am, like my bandwidth is just—I don't even have it anymore. So I'm like, I cannot be here for you. I'm a hollow person when I come home, cause I'm giving everything I have to a job that I do not like.

And then when she did get a job, hers was at a literary agency, very anxiety inducing. So my thing was like, I'm sad all the time and you're anxious, and how can we support each other? And then we got this apartment in the middle of that and then it was like trying to show up for each other while the house is burning down and you're like, ah, I don't want this. And we were applying to MFAs at the same time cause we were like, we don't want this life, so let's have the out. And then going to get the MFA was like, oh I can breathe again for two years. That's great. And then the same thing happens again after you graduate from the MFA. You're like, what's the job I'm getting?

And the same thing happened. I got this amazing job in a non-profit. The workload is insane and my bandwidth just doesn't exist anymore. Cause I'm giving everything to my job and I'm like, I'm not a person anymore. So it's just the hollow shell. When I come home, I'm like, I can't do all the nice things for you. I can't be nice and talk and I, I'm done. And she took more time to find jobs that, like, she really wanted to curate an experience. And I'm like, that's great. That's your thing. You do that. And so work schedules are different. Workloads are different. And then that means that the way that we show up is different.

Cause I told her, like for me, when I get really tired with work, socially I'm dead. I'm not gonna be able to text our friends back and be like, that's amazing. Like she ends up doing all the texting for both of us and then I'll just chime in with a heart emoji cause I'm like, I am not a person anymore.

And so her not resenting me for not being able to show up, but then how much more can I expand myself? It's like all those things where I'm like, I'm not always gonna be in this position. You might be in a different position than I am in two years. And then I'll have to show up socially and do all the texting and, and make sure that the house is clean and all that stuff.

Rachel: And you have stayed, you live together. Have you ever lived apart?

I: No.

Rachel: Has that ever been something that you've talked about?

I: Not really interested in it. We're so used to waking up in the same room that I, I really told her, I was like, if we lived in separate rooms, not even separate houses, just separate rooms, would you wake up at the same time as me? Because if I go to sleep, she'll be like, you know what, I'm tired too. I'll go to sleep. I'm like, are you tired or you just going to sleep cause I'm going to sleep? And so like our schedule is really much like around each other. And so not living together, it would be fine. I'd be open to it, but I would definitely miss her. And it's not that we even talk a lot when we're here, we're mostly quiet and just like, you do your work, whatever. But yeah, like two times a day I'll just be like, hey, I miss you. I'm gonna go back to the room. Cause it's just like, I do. And so I think that that would be—that's obviously going to happen eventually, but I'm enjoying being able to be with her for as long as I can.

Rachel: Do you share a room right now?

I: We do, yeah. Not by choice. It's just because it's a one bedroom and we can afford it. So I was like, I dream of having my own room because there's not enough closet space. And so that's also a huge argument we have all the time about who has the most clothes and how is that gonna go. I'm like, if we just had two bedrooms and two bathrooms, then we could just like have our own space. So the goal would be to get a bigger place we could both live in. And then from there, you know, once we get married, I'd like us to still be close to each other cause I want our kids to grow up together.

But acknowledging fully that I don't expect to live with her the rest of my life.

Rachel: Do you have similar preferences for how to arrange a home? Has that ever been an issue since you share all your spaces?

I: She's under this thing where she's like, she's cleaner than me, which has never been the case. We're both even on cleanliness. But she's very precise. If I'm doing the laundry on Monday and I have the buggy and it's in the hallway, I have to clean the hallway floor in here so that I'm not bringing the outside dirt in our apartment. I think that's a little insane. But if that's what I have to do every time I do the laundry, that is what I do every time I do the laundry.

I think in terms of how we built it, our style was pretty much the same, but we definitely had talks where I was like, well if it was my space I would do duh duh duh, and she wants something that's a bit—it's kind of like our personal styles in terms of how we dress. She would want something more like that. I like that, that's not fully what I like, but I like that. So choosing wall color and stuff like that, it was pretty easy cause we both have similar aesthetics, but I'm excited to see what my own room would look like if I get to choose everything. That would be different.

Rachel: Yeah. That'll be really interesting to see. What is the longest you've ever spent apart?

I: Um, maybe like, uh, two or three days when we would have to go out with separate school trips for overnight field trips or whatever. Her class would go a different week than mine, two or three days. Cause everything else was pretty much, we were at the same place at the same time.

Rachel: Do you find that when you are apart, even if it's just for an afternoon or a day or something, your affect is the same as it would be the rest of the time?

I: Yeah, it's the same. It's just that when I come back, I'm excited to see her face. Even if I go to work and I come back, we're both like, I missed you. How was your day? We always do that, and I genuinely mean it too.

Rachel: That's so nice. That's really, really sweet.

I: Thank you.

Rachel: Are there any things as you were thinking about this conversation that came to mind as significant examples of the complexity of this relationship?

I: Yeah. I mean, one big one, and this is also her thing to tell, but that she has scoliosis and I don't. And that meant that growing up she had to wear a back brace for 21 hours a day, and that is an experience I will never understand. And that was, this happened when we were teenagers too. So that was also rough for her to, like, your body is changing as an adolescent. and you have to wear—it's like a, it's a plastic brace that covers your entire upper body. So she had to wear looser clothes that you wouldn't see the shape of the brace underneath. So all of that was happening, right at adolescence, on top of dance stuff.

I will never understand what that felt like for her to wear that back brace. When we had PE class, you have to take the back brace off and like put it in the bleachers, so everyone would see it in class. So she just told everyone in class and was like, we're all gonna sit down. I'm gonna have a little show and tell. And she took off her brace and she's like, this is how it works. Just so you know. That takes a lot of balls to do that when you're an adolescent and be like, I have a thing that's very different about me than anybody else. I'm gonna willingly tell you about that so that you're not talking behind my back or making assumptions. And so that was probably like the biggest point in growing up where I'm like, oh, we are not the same and our life experiences will not be the same and this will change us. Because her having to go to all those doctor visits, and they wanted to do surgery, which means she wouldn't be able to dance anymore. And our mom was like, she's gotta dance. So then she went to rehab in Milwaukee and I went with her. But even me trailing along, I didn't have to do the exercises she had to do. I got checked for scoliosis, I don't have it. So it's like all these things that she has to think about, even like getting pregnant, just being aware of that weight on her spine. In dance that came up all the time because of the difference in the legs. One's a little bit, hip was higher than the other. And having teachers say it over and over again and she's like, I get it. I have scoliosis.

And I'll never understand the details of like, the breath work she had to do, getting back spasms like every day where she would just have to lay on the bed, cause they're trying to retrain your back to grow in a different direction and it was painful, and all these things. And you have to sleep in it too. In the summer it's hot and you get like rashes, all this stuff. I'll never understand that. And that was one point where I was like, I wish I knew how to show up for you right now. But because it's so different, I have nothing to compare it to. So all I can do is watch her go through this and see how hard it is, but there's nothing I can do that's gonna take that experience away from her.

And so that was definitely like a huge point in our relationship that I didn't know how to talk about it either. I didn't know how it made her feel and she didn't talk about how she felt. I just know that she was angry that she had to go through that. But she also had a lot of grace about how she dealt with it. And so we only started talking about that when we were adults. And then she was like, you didn't show up for me emotionally. And I was like, yeah, I did not, because I was also a teenager and I didn't understand. And anytime I would try to talk to her about it, she would just like shut down. And so I was like, I don't know how to broach this topic because it's a world of hurt and being different at a time in your life where you don't necessarily wanna be that different or not for that reason. And so that was one thing that I have a lot of sympathy, and I also feel like it made her a stronger person. And I don't think that I could have handled the way that she did,

Rachel: Do you have a sense of why you didn't talk about it when you were younger?

I: I was really emotionally closed off when I was younger, I think because from dance I learned how to protect myself emotionally so you don't get hurt by feedback. And so I carried that in everything that I did. Where like, it was just a wall, it was impervious, like nothing's gonna hit me.

So I wasn't gonna have that conversation with her. And I also was taking my cues off of her, so I was like, if you wanna talk about it, we can talk about it. But she didn't wanna talk about it, so I was like, I'm witnessing you go through this. But that seems to be about it. I'm just a witness here. Like I don't know anything more than anybody else in our class knows about how she feels about it because we're not really talking about it.

I know her exercises she has to do. I know that she doesn't wanna do them every night. I know that it hurts her, but beyond that, I don't know what that interior life was like. And even when we were at the rehab center, she met two other young adolescent girls that also had scoliosis. So they did it together and they became best friends for many years because they had gone through that experience at the same time.

And that was one of those things where I was like, I'm on the outside here. And they had to actually go to therapy, the three of them together, and they had the option if they wanted the parents and me to be in therapy with them or not. And then they were like, well, definitely not the parents. And I was like, can I just come in therapy? And she was like, absolutely not. And so that for me was like, there's the door and I'm not gonna try to open anymore because what you're telling me is you want to experience this separate from me. So my thing was like when she's ready to talk about it, we can, but I guess she was also waiting for me to ask her questions about it.

And I didn't know what to ask cause I didn't wanna offend her. Because she felt like it does change the way that her abdomen is. Like one side is curvier, one side is straighter. And for her, that's like a huge point of not feeling great about herself physically, even to today, where now I know okay, I'm gonna champion her every time she wears bikini and I let her know how beautiful it is. But at the same time, that's her body. That's not mine. So I can't tell her how to feel about a difference that I've never had before. So I'm still learning how to talk about it in a way.

Cause for a long time I was just so scared she was gonna like get upset with me for saying the wrong thing. Cause I didn't know anything. I didn't even know what kind of curve she had. I didn't know how many degrees off it was. When they said it progressed, I thought that was positive. And she's like, no, you want it to regress? And I was like, cool. I know so little about what you are experiencing.

Rachel: What did it feel like when you weren't allowed to go to therapy with her and the other girls?

I: It felt like she was wielding her one power in this situation over me of being like, nope, you don't get to do this thing that the rest of us have to do. And I was like, that's fine. You know what I mean? Like I get it. I totally get it. I was just interested. I'd never gone to therapy before. I was like, what are they gonna ask these teenage girls about? But I was just, I was like, let's make it fun. You know what I mean? But then she would also be like, upset that while she was in physical rehab, my mom and I would go to the mall, for example. Cause it was both of our spring break. And so my mom didn't want me to feel like I wasn't having a proper spring break, even though we were there to support my sister.

But it was my decision to go with her. I didn't wanna not go with her. I wanted to experience as much of it as I could so that I could root alongside her. But she made it a little hard because of the wall. So it's just like, I'm just a witness. But you want me to be more than that. Whenever I do it seems I say the wrong thing.

Rachel: I'm curious, you mentioned you were with your mom, I know you said when you were younger you were always with each other and your parents. As you got older, did your relationships evolve to be more distinct with your parents?

I: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I call my mom like two or three times a day and A_____ does not at all. Mom's always like, how is she doing? I haven't heard from her. I'll be their go between. And then with our dad, my sister's a little bit closer with my dad, she's like his best buddy. And normally we butt heads a bit more. So any time I'm gonna go for it, she's in ready-to-nurture-him mode and she's always his go-to best buddy. That's how it works. So it's definitely changed over the years, where I'm always like, why don't you call mommy more and just talk to her? And she's like, I don't really feel like it. So our ways of communicating or relating to them are different. But then our dad, he's still on the even thing. So he'll text us both every single morning to let us know how much he loves us. Every single morning. Yeah. And it's like, I, I, yeah. I love this man. I ride for him hard, even though we fight, I still ride for him and, but she's you know, they'll talk more over the phone than we will. Or she'll text him back more than I will. So it's different the way that we communicate with our mom versus our dad.

Rachel: What questions do you have for other twins? What are you curious about?

I: Yeah, I'm curious what they love about being twins, because I think the world takes so much away from us by the time you're born, with the association of being a twin, and they place things on you. I'm curious what other twins genuinely love about being twins and no one told you to love. The thing that makes you smile about being a twin versus just being a sibling. That I'm interested in. Cause I know a lot of twins growing up that completely separate, didn't have any of the same friends, didn't talk to each other, didn't associate with each other, or they would get in like really bad fights. And my sister and I were never like that. And so I felt kind of like the world had taken their joy of being twins away and they didn't know how to get that joy back or even experience how special it can be being a twin.

Rachel: If you had to name the thing that you love the most about being a twin, what would it be?

I: She just knows me. I feel like, cause we went through life at the same time, we experienced things together at the same rate. So the way that she knows me is a way that nobody else will know me. We just get each other. There's no awkwardness. I can be whoever I wanna be at any time. And she accepts it and then she matches me there. And so I think that that kind of like unconditional love, but also the knowing, she just knows who I am through and through. I don't see that in other siblings necessarily.

Rachel: So there's a question I like to throw out at the end. When do you feel most like yourself?

I: When I'm happy and well rested, that's when I feel like myself. Yeah. Sleep is really important to me. So if I don't sleep and if I'm really tired, I feel like I lose myself more and more. And when I get proper sleep, I feel that I can be as big as I can be as a person. And that's when I feel like fully me.

Rachel: Well, as a follow up because you share a room with your sister. Does she feel that way too? Do you respect sleep in the same way?

I: Oh, sleep for her is even more important than it is for me. She sleeps longer than I do, generally speaking. Also cause our work schedules, I like will wake up at like 5:00am in the mornings depending on what my workload is for that day. And so I'm not always getting eight hours of sleep. And so with the job that I have now, I felt that I've lost myself more and more because of the lack of sleep, where I just feel kinda like a robot when I wake up as opposed to a full person with a beating heart. And so what I've done recently is I've prioritized, like you're gonna get at least eight hours, and then I have to make up for all of the sleep that I've lacked, cause there's a debt there.

So I'm sleeping more and every day I feel more like my kid self again. And that for me is when I feel I can be free and not have all the responsibility of an adult just on my shoulder, I feel like, I'm me again.

 

A.G., I.G.’s twin, was also interviewed. Listen here.