A.G.
This interview has been condensed and edited. All references to specific names and universities have been removed and/or replaced with a 1-second sound gap.
Rachel: Can you just introduce yourself for the recording in whatever way makes you feel comfortable?
A: I'm from Washington, DC. I am an artist. I practice music, dance, and writing in particular. And I'm overall devoted to joy and like, the pursuit of happiness in the truest sense. So I'm not driven by money or anything else. (Laughs) Just joy.
I was born in Washington, DC in a hospital, the name I cannot remember. And it was 57 minutes after my sister came out.
Despite the fact that we are the same age, I'm definitely the baby and she is definitely the older sister and I feed into that dynamic. And I love it. I, I personally do. Growing up she got in trouble for things that I would do and I would get away with a lot of things. And even today she has certain responsibilities that I don't have because of the 57 minutes. Which is crazy. But both of our parents are also the eldest siblings among their brothers and sisters, so I think that, they felt that dynamic existed and they treated us like we were regular siblings.
I cut her hair when we were like three years old. I just grabbed scissors and I was like, sit here, I'm gonna braid your hair and then I'm gonna cut it. And she let me. And then my mom found out and my sister got in trouble for letting me cut her hair. And I'm sure I got a talking to, but my mom was more concerned that my sister sat there and let me do what I wanted to do her hair in that way. If we were ever at sleepovers or things like that, she was sort of in charge of making sure that I was taken care of and that we sort of left the house in a good order and that we weren't running amuck.
She was maybe sort of like a tiny stand-in mom when our mom wasn't there, just to make sure that we were sort of, I was behaving, she was behaving,
Rachel: How did that make you feel, because you're actually the same age?
A: We actually are the same age. (Laughs) I never thought about it until we got older. I really do like being the baby. It has so many advantages and it's—parts of it are absolutely selfish and I realize that too, getting older. But I appreciate that there was some differentiation between our roles as siblings. Cause I don't know that every twin is afforded the older sibling, younger sibling dynamic.
We're still working through it today to create more equality in terms of responsibility. But, yeah, she was always in terms of like, logistics, she had to handle stuff like that more. And no one really expected me to handle logistics and figure out what time we're gonna leave a sleepover and things like that and make sure I was ready when our mom was there at 12 or whatever the case might be.
There is a little bit of personality attached to it as well, because I think she, she definitely seems to handle logistics better. Maybe not even better. She just handles them. And then I was allowed to be maybe more of a creative person who I think even in our creative partnerships today, like fast forwarding to the last few years, when we create dances together, for example, and we are choreographing in the same space, she's the one sending out emails to our dancers and setting rehearsal times. And I'm the one who's sort of responsible, this is unspoken, but for creating a good portion of the choreography in the actual space, and then she refines and adds flourishes and things like that.
I think our parents did a really good job at treating us as individuals, but I would say the rest of the world reminded us that we were twins. and I think the rest of the world treating us as twins, that's when things got complicated. But never in our own house. It was the outside world.
I think most twins have experienced sort of being treated like animals at a zoo where you're in a display case wherever you go, especially when you're younger. People feel like they have access to you or that you're, just by the fact that there's two people who share a face in their eyes, they can come up to you and touch your hair or make you stand next to each other and scan your body and do things that you would never imagine doing to any other person.
They would, you know, point out differences, which we got used to, and then make really, you know, terrible corny jokes about, oh, this is bigger on you, or you have acne and she doesn't, you know, things like that. So I think we got used to sort of navigating that gracefully.
Especially when we were dancing together, people, teachers in particular, loved to look at the differences between us, not only as physical dancers, but as people, and then would particularly use those differences against me. And it became interesting to see how people would say, why can't—quite literally said—I think I was maybe nine years old, and the teacher said, “Why can't you just do it like your sister did it?”
And that was the first time that I'd heard that statement. And it didn't shock me. And I wasn't upset at I_____ but I, everyone else in the class was like—we went to the locker rooms afterwards and they were like, I can't believe he said that. and I was like, just processing. And then it continued sort of to happen in different ways where people were like, “Why can't you attack it like she does? Why don't you have as much spice or like fire that she does?” And several teachers said this to me like, you know, unprompted entirely, even if we were in different classes, but they had us both as students and I just—it was painful to be compared to someone who I love so dearly. And I thought we both had things to offer, but they clearly just wanted two bodies who were the exact same.
So they didn't want to embrace the fact that we are different people. They just wanted a replica of one who was doing it with, they liked it the best. And that was hard for me to accept.
The lovely thing about the ballet world is that it is sort of inherently abusive and obviously very toxic for many reasons, but teachers get away with creating the worst power dynamics you could imagine. So there was no space for me to speak up, especially as a kid, you really are there to do what they ask you to do. and that was understood from the very beginning and anything else, you just would get kicked out. The adults got away with so many things looking back, I could never imagine doing to other adults or let alone children. So in the ballet world, teachers were hard on me, but then I had certain teachers who really saw me for me and sort of praised me for the different things I had to offer that others in the class couldn't. And that was really, it was obviously very validating, but it was nourishing for me because there were people who saw the sort of more water or softer or more expressive sides of what I did that wasn't all fire and sort of in the front of the room all the time. And they saw the merit in that.
In ballet in particular. If you're not the prima, you're the core and as the core everyone has to look the same. And because we not only looked the same, but we also were sort of being trained to be core dancers, I think if they see one dancer who's doing it right, they want everyone else to. But that magnifies and is like further emphasized when you actually have a twin in the room.
Rachel: Was this kind of comparison also happening outside of ballet?
A: No, which is good. We both played music growing up. I played cello and I_____ played violin. And even though they were string instruments, they were completely different worlds. And to be quite honest, I had like a certain degree of natural ability on the cello that I took for granted. So I was, I knew that I was good at it, and I would go into auditions knowing that I was going to nail it, and then I would, and it wasn't the same in ballet, it was completely different. but our instruments were so different. And then in high school, she just stopped playing the violin altogether and moved to the drums. And our worlds were entirely different so no one could even try to compare us.
I was just sort of always nervous in ballet class and super anxious and I just, I mean they had worked really hard to make sure that everyone in the class knew that they were not talented, so that you would constantly like, be sweating through your entire leotard. And you're just a workhorse for years and you just spend like five days a week in the studio convinced that you're terrible, dedicating all your time to trying to convince the people at the head of the room that you deserve to be there.
And then of course with being compared to I_____, it was just painful. It was painful the entire time, but I didn't think that it was strange, so I didn't talk about it. And it was a lot of anxiety there. And then when it came to music, it was completely different because I, I actually knew that I was good and people had told me that I was so, I didn't doubt my ability.
But I also wasn't practicing as much. Like I didn't seek to be in an orchestra or be a first cellist. I was comfortable knowing that at least I could do one thing well, and that most people in this arena agreed I could do it well.
Thank God, you know, thank God for that.
But I do, I do remember we always try to make our dad say things about us like, we'd just try to get him to note, to verbally note the differences between us, because he goes to great lengths to treat us the exact same. I mean, every morning when he would make us hot chocolate in the winter, we would come into the kitchen and he would be at eye level with the cups and pouring in each cup to make sure that he didn't give one of us a drop more than the other.
And it was very sweet. But the running joke is we'd always be like, tell me you love me more than her or tell, just any, just say anything that lets me know that you can see the difference between us. And one day I'd worn him out and he sort of jokingly but very sincerely said, “Okay, okay, okay. When it comes to music, you have more natural ability, but she works harder.”
And I just was like, thank you for saying it. Like it's true. No one's offended. And he was horrified that he said it. But it was one of the best, gratifying moments for me personally because I was like, yes, we're different people. Yes, we're different. You're absolutely right. I'm obnoxious about my natural ability. And she works really, really hard at it. And so I think if we had a very different relationship when it came to music and then later to writing. You know, we both started out in poetry, but I moved to fiction partly because I didn't wanna be in competition with her. I didn't wanna be applying to the same competitions and awards and things like that.
And it was a relief, as hard as it was to switch genres. It was a relief to be in a different world. I had different responsibilities as a writer. We weren't doing the same thing. And there was safety in that too.
Rachel: So your parents worked really hard to treat you equally. Which as you said is really kind of amazing and impressive in some ways. What are some of the other feelings associated with that?
A: So I'd say our mom just treated us sort of like siblings.She didn't work super hard to treat us as equal. She treated us as individuals and then our dad, he was really—I think maybe the twin thing stuck with him and he was like, well, what do I do? Cause he had twins in his family. And so for some reason I think that he felt he had to work hard. He had to work harder as a father to figure out how to, to do right by us. And so to this day when he writes his birthday cards, he'll write the same message verbatim in each card. And I've expressed to him that what he's attempting to do and what the effect of what he's actually doing, they're complete opposites. Like he's attempting to treat us as equals. But he's also erasing our identity by writing the same message in each card, cause we're not the same person. But he doesn't ever want us to read into anything that he writes or says that might communicate, you are more of this than her or you're better at this than her, or I love you more than her.
And that sentiment is very, very sweet. So we've stopped fighting him when it comes to the cards, but even when it comes to buying gifts, he'll just buy us two of the same thing. Like he genuinely mentally can't, can't get past it.
Rachel: Do you feel like he knows who each of you are?
A: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. He just has a hard time verbalizing it cause he thinks that we'll take offense to it. But I know that he knows.
Rachel: What are some of the other ways that he expresses that knowledge?
A: Him and I have a warmer relationship than him and my sister. Growing up we all butted heads for different reasons, but he knew that if he upset my sister that she was gonna wage war and that he wasn't gonna survive it. And so, I mean, just a few weeks ago she texted him and I was like, tell him that he's your best friend, it's gonna make his entire day. And he was like beaming from ear to ear. Our mom was like, I don't know what you texted him, but this man is like on a different level. But if I texted him and was like, “Hey, best friend,” like, he already knows that we're best friends. So it wouldn't have the same effect. (Laughs) I think that he knows that I'm in his corner and that I'll defend him if other people in the family, you know, if they end up locking horns with him.
But at the same time he knows that if he offends me, then he's lost his only soldier. So, it's an interesting dynamic.
Rachel: When you were growing up, did you spend time separately with your parents or was it always you and I_____ together?
A: It was always us together. always us together. Either our mom was driving us to all these rehearsals and we were obviously either playing in the same orchestra as kids or we were going to the same dance practices. And same thing for our dad.
Even when we would go on hikes or things like that, it was always us and our dad or us and our mom to go to the mall. It was never individual. I think it would've been nice to have that separate time. As I got older, I thought about it. Cause I, I've seen other parents and they will go outta their way to be like, all right, today is just me and my three-year-old, or tomorrow's me and my five-year-old. And I think something about the age difference allows them to do that and compartmentalize. But that never happened with us.
Rachel: What were some of the other things that were going on? Were you in different, classes in school? Did you have different friends or the same friends?
A: We were definitely in different classes, I think for most of our academic careers. Maybe in kindergarten we were in the same class. And then after that, I think schools and teachers made it a point to have us in separate classes. and it just so happened that all of our friends, all of our closest friends, were the same growing up. Now that we've gotten older, that's changed. But when we were going to the same schools and there were only 50 kids in our graduating class, it's not like there are so many people to choose from.
But we ended up sharing the same best friends up until we were probably 18. Even today, our closest, closest best friends who are like family, we share them. But, I do have best friends outside of that today, and she does not.
I was the one who would go out and get the friends and then bring them back to and then if we both were like, yeah, we like them and then they could handle having twins as friends—cause I think that was the test for them, not do we like each other, but can you handle having two of us in your life at once? And do you even know how to navigate that kind of relationship?
I'm a little more extroverted, although I can be super shy. And so even when we were kids, I mean, we lived in Spain for a little bit and we didn't speak the language. And I'd go to my dad on the playground and be like, “How do I say hi, do you wanna be my friend?” And he'd tell me and I'd memorize it and I'd run back to this one person on the playground. I'd be like, I'd just repeat it verbatim. And they'd say something and I'd run back to my dad and I was like, okay, what do I say now? And I just go back and forth and I_____ would be like on the swings doing her thing, knowing that I'd come back with a friend for us to play with And I think that sort of continued as we got older I think because I'm naturally a little more open, not necessarily warmer, just more open as a person. People are pretty receptive and they feel, you know, they feel kindness and they open up pretty easily.
And so then friendships ensue from there and they meet I_____ and they see she's a gem. But whether or not they would've met each other in the wild, I can't say. But certainly the friendships have stuck.
And so even through high school, we each pretty much shared, I would say, like one best friend. And then in college we had two best friends. and I never felt like, well, but this is mine. Like I did the work. I never felt that way. And also, if it just so happened, I hit it off with this one person and I_____ never connected with them I could still be their friend. It wasn't like a, either you're down for the program with the both of us, or you're not gonna be my friend. It was never that, it just so happened to work where there was synergy amongst the three of us when we got together.
Rachel: Within these friendships, do you feel like you and I_____ had different ways of relating to your friends?
A: Definitely. Even the way that we text or she doesn't text, to hang out with people. and the way she expresses her love and the dynamics that she has, even with our closest friends, are completely different than the dynamics that we share. One in particular who's like a brother to us, they fight and that's like how they show their love, by like talking about the most honest stuff.
And then if I see her doing that, then to offer a little bit of balance I'm the one who's like, it's okay. You're all right. Wipe your tears. It's okay. and then sometimes she'll be like the clown for the afternoon who's like, making everyone laugh. And then I'm like, well, yep. I take a back seat and laugh at her jokes.
And sometimes the rules are reversed where I'm doing standup for an hour and she's, you know, clapping in the audience with my friend. Yeah. So I think there's some balancing aspect and then there are some relationships that are just fundamentally different with our friends.
The way we talk to them is different. The way we text is completely different.
Rachel: You mentioned earlier that one of the tests is, can they handle being friends with twins? What have you experienced that taught you that that's something not everyone can handle?
A: Meeting people who get overwhelmed. And you can look in their eyes and they're just... like we're twins—we can finish each other's sentences. Sometimes we talk over each other if we get excited and not everyone's used to that dynamic. And so having someone who's a third party who is not privy to like the full lives that we lead and the sort of the mind that we, like the consciousness that we share in a way, it can be overwhelming for them to even have a conversation with twins. And the ping pong, the visual ping pong in their eyes of going back and forth between watching us talk. I can tell if someone's getting overstimulated, and if that's the case, then we feel like we have to like, you know, tone down and hold back so that they feel a little more at ease. But that's not a sustainable relationship necessarily. Sometimes they can grow into the role of, yes, I can be a friend to both, and sometimes they're only meant to be a friend to one.
Rachel: When you walk into a room together, what is the feeling that you have?
A: We make lots of jokes about this cause we know that there's power that comes with entering any room as a twin. People are watching and looking and I think even growing up, lots of kids would be like, oh yeah, such and such said that they know you. And we'd be like, what are you talking about? They'd be like, “Yeah, the twins!” And I, as I got older, I realized that it's easier for people to remember us than it is for us to remember them, because they're looking at us as a package deal. And for them, seeing twins is such a rarity that had stuck out in their minds.
The joke is this; we have animal totems. Hers is a fox, mine is a snake. Whenever we walk into a room, we're like, yeah, it's serpent and fox energy. And everyone's gonna feel it. And it changes the dynamic. But it's a lot of power when you have two people who, you know, know each other deeply and there are two sets of eyes looking at you for your one set of eyes. It's a lot of power, and I think that's why I try to be as kind and warm as I possibly can, cause I've seen people be overwhelmed even if we didn't say anything. But we also do love the fact that there is a little bit of inherent power when you walk into a room, cause people are just sort of shocked. No one was expecting to see twins.
No one's really ever expecting to see twins, although we're all out here all the time. Even when I see twins, I feel like my day just improved, and I'm a twin. Like, it's, it's so silly, but I understand the psychology. I do get it.
Rachel: So by contrast, what does it feel to walk into a room by yourself?
A: I still feel powerful, but I know that people aren't looking at me because I'm in this sort of, this like couple or this duo that they're intrigued by psychologically. This is another conversation that I literally had last night where my friends were like, do you ever get like knots in your stomach or butterflies when you walk into your room and you don't know people?
And I was like, no. And I_____ was like, yeah, I do. And I was like, do you really? She was like, I get anxious all the time. And I was like, I just hope it's not awkward. And then you just go from there, like chest forward head, like leaning into it. So I think I still feel as powerful, but I know that people aren't looking and examining for the same reasons. and I know that I also get to make my own impressions separate from the person beside me, and that they're not coming to immediate conclusions about who I am based off of who's around me.
Rachel: Do you feel like you make a different impression when you're on your own versus when you're with your sister?
A: I actually think it's the same. I'm the same person, but I think I might be even more outgoing when I'm socializing because I don't have someone with me who I'm like, I wanna make sure that she's comfortable all the time.
And I know that not every social scenario is comfortable for everyone in the same way. I have a pretty high barometer, like it would take a lot for me to feel uncomfortable, for better or for worse. But I think when we're together, I always wanna make sure that she's comfortable in parties or, or larger social events. But when I'm by myself, I'm just floating and dancing through the room and like laughing super loud and doing whatever I want, however I want, and then I go home and don't think about this.
So like, I think afterwards, I know I_____ will examine how she socialized. I don't do that. so I just, I live in a different kind of way, but I appreciate how she does have that introspection. I think I just move through with a little more freedom.
Rachel: Is there any tension that comes from having very different experiences of the same thing?
A: Weirdly, no. As much as I love having someone who I think is interpreting most scenarios similarly to myself, it's also fantastic when we don't, and for whatever reason our private lives and our public lives, there's no cross, there's no bleeding over. So the way I relate to her is my sister, like, she's the absolute love of my life. Like I couldn't do it without her. She's my favorite person in the world. She brings me so much joy on a daily basis. And I shower her with compliments every day. And I would, the things I do with her, I would never do with anybody else. Like I've never done it with anyone I've dated, even with best friends. Like our relationship is so different and that has not been affected for whatever reason by anything that's taken place outside of the walls of our own home, even when we were younger.
Cause I was like, the way people are treating us has nothing to do with how you and I see each other and everything to do with how they see us and how they seek to understand or don't understand us and their own sort of personal world that they're projecting.
And luckily there hasn't been, or I don't know if it's luckily, but there just hasn't been any crossed wires there. They're separate. And I think that's why I cherish the friendship and the sisterhood that much more because it's still as precious and cute as it was when we were two years old.
Nothing has really changed. I mean, many things have changed, but the same sweetness that existed then still exists now. We haven't been hardened by how people have been cruel to us or treated us or compared us, which is a wonderful thing to report, .
Rachel: Not to harp on the painful ballet memories.
A: Yeah, no, let's go back to it. Yeah. (Laughs)
Rachel: Cause that's a moment where I think a lot of friends, siblings, they could have taken the other route. You know, this is your fault, or you're the reason that I'm experiencing this pain. How do you feel like you stayed on each other's team?
A: I think the thing is, I never saw her feeding into the dynamic that existed when we were in rehearsals or ballet classes, ever. She didn't say anything about it, but she never fed into it. And I knew that really she was there to play the game, which was to be the best.
She just wanted to be the best. That was it. And it had nothing to do with me. Even if I wasn't in the room, she still wanted to be the best.
And I wasn't upset at her for it. In fact, I'd look at her and be like, we're made of the same stuff. If she can do it, I know that I can do it too. She's a barometer for what I'm capable of in some ways. And so it was painful to know that she was able to do it with so much ease. And for me, I just, I just couldn't do it in that exact way. But she never fed into it.
Around that same time, I also developed scoliosis when I was 11. So I was diagnosed, and then I had to wear a back brace for several years of my life from 12 to 16. I wore this really intense plastic brace that came from like right underneath my armpit all the way down to my hip. And it was this crazy shape and I had to wear it under my clothes for 21 hours a day.
And I got really bad rashes from it, especially when it was hot outside, and I had to figure out how to camouflage it because the shape of it was not meant to fit my body. It was meant to correct what I had going on. So it protruded in weird ways. and I avoided hugs from people cause I didn't wanna have to talk about it. I had to buy shirts that were like three sizes too big. And I was sort of battling with that too. So between that and dance, I was like, and then, you know, wanting to be an A student, I was like, listen, I can't go mad. I can't go crazy. I can only fight so many battles at once. She's my friend, she's my sister.
I didn't have energy to make an enemy out of anyone else who wasn't inherently one.
I think ballet prepared me for that, that the world wasn't gonna treat us similarly. And then our bodies weren't gonna be similar, which I never expected that they would, but I didn't think that they would deviate in that way so quickly. And that I'd be living with this thing for the rest of my life, essentially, and that I'd have to figure out ways to correct it. I mean, there were moments where we talked about getting surgery and then putting like six screws and like metal poles in my back, and that was a nightmare. And I was going to doctor's appointments all the time by myself and like super nervous to get my curve measured and to see if it had progressed or not.
And I was doing all those things by myself with my mom. So at no point was that a journey that I ever expected her to join me in on. I think I expected her to be a little more emotionally supportive. At the same time we were kids and she had gotten what she wanted up until that point in life. And so I, I don't think she even knew how to support someone who wasn't getting exactly what they wanted, And so when you're 11, what's a kid gonna say to another, like, even sisters, what could your sister say to you when you're like really going through it and like crying every day looking in the mirror, doing exercises, but like seeing that your body is like fundamentally uneven and imbalanced and I'm gonna have to live with that forever.
And I was just trying to reckon through like, I don't wanna hate my body. I don't. I don't wanna look in the mirror and cringe at what I see. At the same time I'm a teenager. I'm getting messaging from all sorts of media, from school that certain bodies are attractive and other bodies simply are not.
And despite being naturally thin or naturally athletically built, I just will never have an even body. And I, I just, there was a moment where we—I went to get physical therapy over spring break. Like I literally spent my spring break in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, amid snow, spending, you know, 12 hours a day doing workout stuff with other kids who had scoliosis.
And I_____ was getting her nails done and going to the movies. And I was like, well if this is not a metaphor for how our lives have branched in different directions, I don't know what is. And she was like, what's wrong? Why are you so upset? I was like, I'm literally over here sweating and paying for having this physical condition that I didn't ask for. And you went to see a film today on our spring break. You went to get your nails done today.
And then we had a therapy session and the lady was like, well, do you want your sister to come in? And I was like, why? She's not a part of this world. What would, how would I benefit from her sitting there listening to the sob story of our collective lives? Not that I was gatekeeping and being like, well we have scoliosis and you don't. It just was like, why, what would she benefit from listening to this?
I think I wanted more support then. And we talked about it now. I was like, I really could have used a little more softness from you growing up. And I think we said that everything was so normal and my mom was just like, this is just what it is. We have to work through it. And I appreciate that. But I could have used a slight bit more tenderness, especially with the back brace and whatnot.
Cause I was like, we made lots of jokes, but were they as funny as we’d hoped they were? And I think that was an attempt to normalize it, but it was pretty painful. But again, I didn't talk that much about it out loud. Despite talking a lot socially, when it comes to my emotions and other things that I'm processing, I don't really talk about it out loud. I just handle it myself for better or for worse.
I thought she would see, I mean, cause she was seeing all of it, like the back spasms I was getting in the middle of the night, like I would have to spend 30 minutes a day doing exercises. We had to buy gear for, like—I had a whole room just for like these crazy things you could never imagine your body would do just to help combat or not allow my curve to progress.
And I was like, well, if you're seeing it every day, like you're seeing it every day, surely that's enough evidence for you. I don't think I'd have to say it out loud. But again, She was living a different life. And so she was seeing it, but she wasn't taking note of it and thinking that it was painful to me, because I was just doing it and I also wasn't talking about it.
We grew up with two other twins who were girls and we all looked kind of similar and they had like these Victoria's Secret curves. And we went on vacation together and I was like, yeah, mentally I can't do this. Like buying bathing suits was really challenging for me. And then I'd be around these three people who not only had like, just even bodies, like symmetrical bodies, but we're developing differently. And I just was like, wow. I guess I'm just an adolescent boy who's flat chested and has a six pack and like, one leg longer than the other. Like, I had to wear a lift in one of my shoes. It was the least glamorous experience of my life. And I just remember feeling so, so terrible every time we would have to get into a pool together.
And despite that, I still had fun, but having three bodies who were similar to mine but also radically different, made it so much worse. And then at some point I was like, I refuse to be the girl, the woman, whatever, who looks at photos of herself and you know, tears it apart. I just said, I can't do it and I won't do it. And so I'm still in the process of reconditioning my brain to say “The way you look is fantastic.” Like if I'm on the beach and someone takes a photo, I'm going to accept it for what it is.
We'll just start with the acceptance, then we can move up to “you look beautiful” if we need to, But let's just start with the basics. Like, you've got a body and that's fantastic. Pretty stellar. We're starting at a really high place. It's functioning, it's actually healthy. We love that as well. And now we're just, we're building. I'm delighting in buying bikinis these days. Like I just bought two more last week. I just used to wear one-pieces. I used to hate it. I used to hate it so much. And I'm just coming around to it, I'm getting there. But I do look at her body and every once in a while I'm like—just, it's so, even. I'm not even focused on shape. It's just even. Like when you bend over, both sides of your lower back are even—what's that like? Your waist is the same on both sides. What's that like?
Like I'm living this one side is curved and the other is straight. It's an interesting reality for me to reckon with.
Rachel: I wanna talk a little bit about college time. I know that you ended up going to school together.
A: Yeah, we ended up applying to all the same schools cause we have the same interests, career-wise and otherwise.
And we both wanted to be in the city, so we applied to the same schools, got accepted at the same schools with the same sort of scholarships and whatnot, which was fantastic.
And then when we got to college, completely different classes, and completely different friends for the first time as well.
Rachel: What was it like for you to be friends with people who didn't know your sister?
A: It felt normal. I mean, it's so strange cause we'd lived our entire lives not having that. And especially in grad school, we went to completely different grad schools. No one knew who I was. No one knew who she was. and then it was this fun little party trick when she showed up one day and they were like, oh my god.
And then they knew I had a twin sister who did poetry and they thought she was amazing. And I was like, yeah, she is, but she's my best kept secret. But yeah, no one had any reference points. But I'd been making friends for both of us our entire lives, so I was never questioning whether people liked me for me or the person next to me. So when I was in a situation where I was making friends by myself, I was like, well this is what I've been doing my entire life.
Rachel: Were you studying the same thing?
A: In grad school, I changed, I went, I studied fiction, I mean, still creative writing, but our focuses and concentrations were different.
She studied poetry and I studied fiction. And those worlds, again, despite being creative, are entirely different. And I missed the people, I missed the poets that I used to be around in undergrad a lot, cause I still felt like one, I still moved like one, I was just writing in a different format.
So I kind of lamented the loss of the cohort and the overall energy of being around poets versus fiction writers. It was very stale. It was very one-dimensional. Actually people thought I was like this rebellious, and just going against the grain, and what is she doing? They're like, are you sure you're writing fiction? Are you sure you're meant to be in this program? And I was like, yeah, actually, the fact that you're questioning me lets me know that I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.
I was really operating completely differently. Like she was writing poetry and people were like, yes, this is poetry. And I was writing fiction and people were like, are you okay? Like, like, can you write normally?
So it was kind of fun for me cause I got to play. And no one had to be like, is your sister okay? You know, they'd have to come to me with their concerns. They didn't have to go to her. So I was like, I'm gonna do exactly what I want, how I want to,
Rachel: So you ended up switching to fiction, but when you first started in college, you were both writing poetry, right? Did you have any fears around being in that shared space?
A: The good news is our voices were super different on the page. If they were similar, I would be very concerned. and then I think really by sophomore year, I sort of knew that.
I wanted more than what that genre had to offer. So I started to take more classes in fiction after two years. Even though I got my degree in poetry and so I knew prior to applying to grad school, prior to even graduating from undergrad, that I was going to transition. And that I think was a relief.
My mom sort of jokingly said one day she's like, “Well, I can't have you guys competing against each other professionally as poets, so someone's gotta make a change.” I was like, well, I hear you loud and clear. And luckily, I took a fiction class and I thought, this is super challenging. I have no idea what I'm doing. This must be the answer. So I ended up doing that and it was a very rough transition. And I just was like, this is a thing I'm supposed to do cause I want to, but also it's a relief to know that we aren't going to be in the same genre.
Cause now that she's getting her book published in September, I don't have to think, well mine's gonna come out maybe next year and that might be terrible for us. And like, how are critics gonna receive it and how are they gonna, they're gonna wanna compare it—cause there are twins who write poetry who have existed for like decades and people—the Dickman brothers—and people always talk about them, and they sort of read their books in tandem and that's fine.
But we've done so much of that together. I'm like, certain things just have to be for us as individuals. Like she got a nose piercing. I love nose piercings. I will never get it done. She rocks a buzz cut. I mean, not currently, but like she's gonna return to it. I'll never cut my hair above my shoulder.
There are just certain things I will not do on principle because that's just her territory and we each deserve to have our own thing. I think it gives us some space from the outside world looking in, drawing all these comparisons, making all these annoying, irritating remarks all the time. Especially as we get older. I think they think it's stranger that we're more similar than not as we creep up into our thirties.
Rachel: I know that you've done collaborative work with your sister, and you end up taking on different roles. Can you talk to me about that process a little bit?
A: So rocky. So rocky. I understand that people are like, you know, don't work with people you marry. I feel like she's my spouse basically and I'm just like, yeah, you're right. We hadn't determined our roles before we got into collaborating. So we thought, yes, we're both gonna send off emails and handle logistics and then we're both gonna enter the studio space and do 50-50. We're gonna both warm up the dancers and we're gonna both create the choreo. And that just didn't end up happening. I think we just sort of fell into the roles that maybe suited us and our natures better. But then we ended up resenting the other person for not doing more of the thing that we were doing.
So when she was like finding studio space and emailing the dancers with links and references for what we were trying to go for, she resented me for not doing that too, cause she felt like she was the businesswoman. And then I had the luxury of creating. But of course when we got into the studio, the pressure to create was immense, cause we'd never done it before. And I would create material and she'd be like, well let's try it like this. And then I'd be like, well if you're not actually offering new material, can you really refine it or revise it? And so I think we clashed a lot in the beginning and just now are we probably realizing what our roles are.
I could be doing more of the emailing and whatnot and leading conversation beginning at the top of rehearsals, and she could be doing more of the creating actual physical material in the studio. But we both understand what we're best at, too. So I can't resent her for not doing more of the thing that doesn't come super naturally to her under those pressured circumstances of like, we have an hour, we paid for an hour, we have to create something cause we see our dancers in 30 minutes.
Rachel: When you have the outcome of your work together—what is the feeling compared to when you finish a story on your own?
A: When it comes to dance we don't just choreograph it, but we perform in it. And I always feel like, because I wear more of the choreographer's hat when I get to perform, I can't 100% live in the performance, cause I'm still thinking as a choreographer.
Whereas she, again, can attack just the performance because she sort of was embodying the dancer all along. So she's not sitting in two particular roles. She's sort of more comfortably situated in one. And I feel like I'm thinking, are we all spaced out properly? On top of, am I emoting? Am I executing?
When it comes to writing a story, I just feel the relief of, I've done it. And I, again, I didn't have to collaborate with anyone. So again, I didn't meet any resistance outside of my own ego and my revision brain. But I got to do exactly what I wanted and I got to live through it as the writer and the editor, which are two roles that I have to do.
But there's no one to—she's not sitting there doing the writing while I'm editing. I did all of it myself. I played all the roles.
Rachel: What does confrontation look like between you two?
A: Oh, it can get brutal. I mean, in the past few years it's really toned down incredibly. But because we're big on the truth, we'll just say it. We'll just say the thing that we're thinking on top of our brain, You know, just so lacking in compassion.
But we're like, but it's the truth. And you had to hear it. And I think when we first started choreographing, there was a lot of tension and we just wouldn't—at a certain point, we wouldn't even say things to each other cause we knew that that would be the trigger that would, the tornado would begin again and you just don't even have time for that.
We're literally in the studio, we paid for this. We do not have time to get into another fight. And I think we just started to realize in the past few years that A, we don't enjoy fighting, I prefer communicating, but our communication styles are also different when we argue.
So we're just, we're talking now more than you know, yelling or making little snide remarks to remind you you're not doing the thing you said you would do today, you're not also doing it well at all. We're not doing that as much anymore, which is a relief because we used to really go for it.
Rachel: Do you talk about how you should treat each other, and how you do treat each other?
A: Only in fights. When we feel like someone's not treating another person correctly or you're not lifting your weight. When we have those sorts of conversations, then that's an opportunity for us to say like, wait, pause for a second.
And actually we hadn't talked about the ballet wound our entire lives until we signed up for this. I woke up one morning crying, like I crying out of nowhere. And I was like, I don't know if I've ever voiced this to you, but I, like, I I, I suffered, it was really painful for me growing up in the ballet world. I don't think she, I thought she saw it, but she didn't see the depths of it. I started thinking about the differences in how we were treated growing up and things like that, and the pain that comes with that. And so I actually verbalized for the first time in 29 years what that experience was like. And she felt terrible, but she actually got to hear it for the first time. And that helped a lot in healing. And I didn't, I never foresaw that happening, like ever.
Rachel: What is the time that you've spent away from each other?
A: No time. No time. And I do think about that. No time. I mean, when we went to grad school, that was the only time that we were really leading separate lives. And even in our work now, we lead separate lives, but because of Covid we're in the same house still working. And I do think what it would be like for one of us to live in a completely different city, to even live alone.
I've never had a bedroom to myself my entire life. Like ever, ever. And I, I never, you know, if I wanna go on a walk, she's right there with me. I've never gone on a walk by myself. Not, I mean, I've done stuff by myself, but never sort of consistently, like I didn't, I've never gone out to eat dinner by myself.
I've never gone to a movie by myself. I've never done things like that because she's always there. And if I wanna go to a party, but I'm like, I don't know too many people, it might be kind of awkward. I'll just bring her and I can still go wherever I want. But with someone who brings me comfort. I think about that often.
Cause I think the older that we get, I think she thinks our life plans are pretty similar. And in many ways they are, but in many ways they aren't. Even in terms of location, I would love to live in New Mexico. I would love to live in the desert. And I know that she would love to live in upstate New York. And we just haven't spent time apart that way. She's never even gone on a trip without me. Every trip we've ever taken it, it's been together.
And so I'm curious, part of me thinks that it really won't be as radically different as we suspect, but I don't know if we're good at having phone calls. I think we're so used to talking in person that our phone calls are terrible. We're terrible over the phone. We dunno how to talk. The good news about her is that we're both really independent despite leading so much of our lives together.
So even if we're, even if we're sort of working in the same space, we will not talk to each other for hours and we are cognizant that we just need space as individuals. And so I love when she goes to hang out with her friends. I love when she gets to experience life without me, that brings me so much joy. And then I get time by myself in the apartment. So I think we try to find ways for that to happen. We'll close doors. We just don't infringe upon each other's space, especially when we're working. Or if somebody just wants to rest and the other person doesn't.
Rachel: I'm curious about your bedroom.
A: Yeah. (Laughs) Many people are, yeah.
Rachel: Can you describe what that is like?
A: Yeah. It's the same thing we've had since we were born. Two twin beds in a single bedroom. Yes. Lots of people have conversations with us about, like, if you're dating someone, how does that work? You don't invite people over. And it's like, no, we don't invite people over unless they're friends. And again, I've, I've never had a room by myself. I've never had—I just don't know what that would feel like. I'm so curious. I would love to experience it, but I don't know what that's like. And I anticipate that if we ever get married, I don't know, who knows, but if that ever happens, that'll also be a really interesting bridge to cross. Cause thus far there hasn't been any other, not even competing for us, but other person who's been so important that we really felt like we had to split our time up and that there was a new person to introduce who wasn't a best friend, but was something more. That hasn't really happened yet.
So I don't know how I'll navigate that either.
Rachel: Is there anything else that came up for you when you were thinking about this conversation?
A: I've noticed recently when friends hang out with both of us, especially if we take trips with these friends, is that they've never seen our sisterhood outside of a two hour hangout. So if they see it for 72 hours, then they see the ins and outs of how it operates. And the things that we do that we thought were normal are things that they apparently have never seen before. and it ends up being the really cute stuff that we do.
We took a hike and I_____ for whatever reason, decided to wear Doc Martens that she had never broken in before for the first time on a three hour uphill hike. And I told her beforehand, I was like, that's the most insane stupid thing I've ever heard in my life. You're gonna suffer.
And we got to the top of the mountain and her heels were literally bleeding. And so without conversation, it was already understood that she had suffered enough. And so it was now time for me to—we switched shoes. We didn't talk about it. We just took our shoes off and just switched shoes. And our friend was like, that's so crazy. That's like a superhuman superpower. And I was like, in what way? Someone is suffering. You're just, and you wear the same shoe size. And she was really moved by that. We do this all the time in really, in smaller ways. Even sometimes she'll untie my shoes if I don't wanna bend down to untie them.
I think I took for granted that level of either intimacy or sweetness or just willingness to, to do whatever to make sure that other person is also comfortable. But I mean, there are lots of things that we won't do for each other, like get water for her if she's in the bedroom.
But apparently I'll, you know, I'll switch shoes if she's bleeding. So there are limits.
Rachel: It seems like your day-to-day lives right now are very different.
A: Yeah. Super.
Rachel: Can you describe how that shows up in your relationship with each other right now?
A: Well, she works a nine to five and really she works more than a nine to five cause she works on the weekends, too. And I work several part-time jobs that allow me the freedom to write and to create and to read.
She's making more money than I am, so she's more financially secure than I am. So there's a trade off, obviously in this particular capitalistic structure. But, she, I think she wants part of the freedom that I have in my schedule. And so I was convinced for a while that she resented me for sleeping in until eight o'clock in the morning if I didn't have to be at work at nine. And I didn't have to perform the same way she did in the somewhat corporate world. I could wear jeans to work if I wanted to. I felt like there was tension even in smaller conversations of "You didn't take the trash out."
But really what she was saying was, you have all this extra time. Why are you not doing more work in this particular domestic sphere when you can afford to? Cause I'm already sort of burning the candle at both ends when it comes to the professional life.
I didn't wanna be the reminder of the thing that she wanted, that she didn't have. I try to counteract that by doing more chores or ordering groceries all the time and making sure things are taken care of so that when she is not working, she doesn't have to worry about the smaller things.
Cause I have the extra time, but I also do feel a little guilty sometimes cause I see that she's working around the clock and I simply am not, and I'm also delighting in not doing that thing, cause I do not derive joy from burnout. And I've done that before.
I don't wanna live like that. But it's a luxury to, to look at someone who's working that hard and for me to say, it's a shame you're working that hard.
Rachel: Is finances ever a thing between you two?
A: Oh my God, yeah. Yes, yes. She's sort of always made more money than I have. When we were in grad school too, she got a full ride and they literally paid for this apartment. They were paying her rent, not just giving her a free ride, but they were paying for her, rent and our groceries. And I went back to [...] and they gave their students no money.
So she was financing our relationship for a few years, and that dynamic had entered where she was like, but I'm the breadwinner and this is my money. And we'd have conversations where it's like, no, it's our money. And what was interesting is that she was making all this money, but only took two classes a semester and I had six classes a semester and I was making nothing. And we had lots of conversations about, when do we step up when someone's drowning in work? It's your turn to step up. And I think even the responsibility too—it being the elder sibling's, like if we go out to eat with our parents, she'll pay for us. But she also has more money in her bank. I'm, you know, I'm the poor one. I'm happy—I'm poor, but I'm happy. You know what I mean? And so it's a little bit of a joke.
I do seek to balance that out cause I don't want her to feel financial responsibility all the time.
Rachel: What kind of changes over time have you felt in your identity as a twin?
A: The attention and the comparison that random strangers would make with us on the street has lessened a lot. And I think people have said that. I mean, we're fraternal to begin with, but we look very, very similar, I'm aware. And I think people—I mean there are two camps. Either we look less similar now or more similar than ever. I don't know which one is true. But I think that, I think that we are just even solidifying in our own personalities and how we like to dress and present to the world and how we navigate the world.
So I feel like we're being treated less like twins in a certain kind of way. And yet the closeness and intimacy of the twinship that we share in our personal private sphere remains.
I think we're, just in the past few years, understanding that we're radically different. And so I look at this relationship as I would any relationship where I'm like, yes, we're separate individual people. Like if I was dating someone, I wouldn't expect them to clean the same way that I do or to eat the same way that I do. And yet I expect her to do those things, or at least I did up until a few years ago. And we just are now sort of being like, oh my goodness. Yes, you're a full human being. And despite having had this similar experience growing up, the same house, similar values, we move through this world radically differently, in great ways and in small ways.
And so we're just now realizing that we just want harmony, and we also have to honor that we're different. Not shame the other person for being different, but honoring that yes—when we first meet people, she's more reserved. Okay. And? I can't ask her to be more extroverted. That's not her personality. And that also not the answer to whatever harmony we're trying to achieve.
One thing that we didn't talk about is the fact that I_____ acts, I don't act. And that's a world that I had never entered with her.
The greatest joy of my life was being able to witness her on stage and not be on stage with her. And that had never happened ever before. We were always on stage together. And even though I have interest in that world, I was like, I'm never, I'm, I'm not gonna touch it. On principle again, you deserve to have certain things for yourself. And so our senior year, she was part of a production that I wasn't. That never happened before. She had a whole crew and cast and they had all these experiences and spent, I don't know, three hours each day of the week together for six months.
And that was a world I had never been a part of. I didn't know anyone. I didn't even understand how it fully worked. And she was so happy. She was so happy.
To sit in an audience and have no clue as to what she was gonna say or anything at all—I mean, they were taking their clothes off and doing crazy things. And these 20 year olds were just going for it. And I was thrilled. And I was like, I love not knowing. I actually do not seek to know everything about you, but I really, really enjoy learning things about you and getting to watch you and getting to actually study how she moves on stage and how she talks and getting to experience her as someone who is fully outside of myself, as a stranger almost.
And so even now when it comes to things like that, it's honoring the individuality of, even if I do have somewhat interest in this, I think you deserve to have it more, cause you want it a little more, you're more interested.
And again, we need not do everything together.
Rachel: So it's almost like the most distance you've ever been able to put between you, and you got to see her more clearly?
A: Absolutely. I loved it.
Spotlight hitting her little face and I loved it. Every bit of it.
Rachel: I have a final question, which I ask everyone. When do you feel most like yourself?
A: It's honestly by myself, but also in nature. That's it. Any bit of nature. But when I am by myself—not being perceived, no reflective surfaces, just existing, that's when I'm coming home. I’m coming home. I mean, ideally as minimal clothing on as possible. That's when I feel like I'm inhabiting myself and I'm also seeing myself in not other humans, but other creatures around me.
A: I'm from Washington, DC. I am an artist. I practice music, dance, and writing in particular. And I'm overall devoted to joy and like, the pursuit of happiness in the truest sense. So I'm not driven by money or anything else. (Laughs) Just joy.
I was born in Washington, DC in a hospital, the name I cannot remember. And it was 57 minutes after my sister came out.
Despite the fact that we are the same age, I'm definitely the baby and she is definitely the older sister and I feed into that dynamic. And I love it. I, I personally do. Growing up she got in trouble for things that I would do and I would get away with a lot of things. And even today she has certain responsibilities that I don't have because of the 57 minutes. Which is crazy. But both of our parents are also the eldest siblings among their brothers and sisters, so I think that, they felt that dynamic existed and they treated us like we were regular siblings.
I cut her hair when we were like three years old. I just grabbed scissors and I was like, sit here, I'm gonna braid your hair and then I'm gonna cut it. And she let me. And then my mom found out and my sister got in trouble for letting me cut her hair. And I'm sure I got a talking to, but my mom was more concerned that my sister sat there and let me do what I wanted to do her hair in that way. If we were ever at sleepovers or things like that, she was sort of in charge of making sure that I was taken care of and that we sort of left the house in a good order and that we weren't running amuck.
She was maybe sort of like a tiny stand-in mom when our mom wasn't there, just to make sure that we were sort of, I was behaving, she was behaving,
Rachel: How did that make you feel, because you're actually the same age?
A: We actually are the same age. (Laughs) I never thought about it until we got older. I really do like being the baby. It has so many advantages and it's—parts of it are absolutely selfish and I realize that too, getting older. But I appreciate that there was some differentiation between our roles as siblings. Cause I don't know that every twin is afforded the older sibling, younger sibling dynamic.
We're still working through it today to create more equality in terms of responsibility. But, yeah, she was always in terms of like, logistics, she had to handle stuff like that more. And no one really expected me to handle logistics and figure out what time we're gonna leave a sleepover and things like that and make sure I was ready when our mom was there at 12 or whatever the case might be.
There is a little bit of personality attached to it as well, because I think she, she definitely seems to handle logistics better. Maybe not even better. She just handles them. And then I was allowed to be maybe more of a creative person who I think even in our creative partnerships today, like fast forwarding to the last few years, when we create dances together, for example, and we are choreographing in the same space, she's the one sending out emails to our dancers and setting rehearsal times. And I'm the one who's sort of responsible, this is unspoken, but for creating a good portion of the choreography in the actual space, and then she refines and adds flourishes and things like that.
I think our parents did a really good job at treating us as individuals, but I would say the rest of the world reminded us that we were twins. and I think the rest of the world treating us as twins, that's when things got complicated. But never in our own house. It was the outside world.
I think most twins have experienced sort of being treated like animals at a zoo where you're in a display case wherever you go, especially when you're younger. People feel like they have access to you or that you're, just by the fact that there's two people who share a face in their eyes, they can come up to you and touch your hair or make you stand next to each other and scan your body and do things that you would never imagine doing to any other person.
They would, you know, point out differences, which we got used to, and then make really, you know, terrible corny jokes about, oh, this is bigger on you, or you have acne and she doesn't, you know, things like that. So I think we got used to sort of navigating that gracefully.
Especially when we were dancing together, people, teachers in particular, loved to look at the differences between us, not only as physical dancers, but as people, and then would particularly use those differences against me. And it became interesting to see how people would say, why can't—quite literally said—I think I was maybe nine years old, and the teacher said, “Why can't you just do it like your sister did it?”
And that was the first time that I'd heard that statement. And it didn't shock me. And I wasn't upset at I_____ but I, everyone else in the class was like—we went to the locker rooms afterwards and they were like, I can't believe he said that. and I was like, just processing. And then it continued sort of to happen in different ways where people were like, “Why can't you attack it like she does? Why don't you have as much spice or like fire that she does?” And several teachers said this to me like, you know, unprompted entirely, even if we were in different classes, but they had us both as students and I just—it was painful to be compared to someone who I love so dearly. And I thought we both had things to offer, but they clearly just wanted two bodies who were the exact same.
So they didn't want to embrace the fact that we are different people. They just wanted a replica of one who was doing it with, they liked it the best. And that was hard for me to accept.
The lovely thing about the ballet world is that it is sort of inherently abusive and obviously very toxic for many reasons, but teachers get away with creating the worst power dynamics you could imagine. So there was no space for me to speak up, especially as a kid, you really are there to do what they ask you to do. and that was understood from the very beginning and anything else, you just would get kicked out. The adults got away with so many things looking back, I could never imagine doing to other adults or let alone children. So in the ballet world, teachers were hard on me, but then I had certain teachers who really saw me for me and sort of praised me for the different things I had to offer that others in the class couldn't. And that was really, it was obviously very validating, but it was nourishing for me because there were people who saw the sort of more water or softer or more expressive sides of what I did that wasn't all fire and sort of in the front of the room all the time. And they saw the merit in that.
In ballet in particular. If you're not the prima, you're the core and as the core everyone has to look the same. And because we not only looked the same, but we also were sort of being trained to be core dancers, I think if they see one dancer who's doing it right, they want everyone else to. But that magnifies and is like further emphasized when you actually have a twin in the room.
Rachel: Was this kind of comparison also happening outside of ballet?
A: No, which is good. We both played music growing up. I played cello and I_____ played violin. And even though they were string instruments, they were completely different worlds. And to be quite honest, I had like a certain degree of natural ability on the cello that I took for granted. So I was, I knew that I was good at it, and I would go into auditions knowing that I was going to nail it, and then I would, and it wasn't the same in ballet, it was completely different. but our instruments were so different. And then in high school, she just stopped playing the violin altogether and moved to the drums. And our worlds were entirely different so no one could even try to compare us.
I was just sort of always nervous in ballet class and super anxious and I just, I mean they had worked really hard to make sure that everyone in the class knew that they were not talented, so that you would constantly like, be sweating through your entire leotard. And you're just a workhorse for years and you just spend like five days a week in the studio convinced that you're terrible, dedicating all your time to trying to convince the people at the head of the room that you deserve to be there.
And then of course with being compared to I_____, it was just painful. It was painful the entire time, but I didn't think that it was strange, so I didn't talk about it. And it was a lot of anxiety there. And then when it came to music, it was completely different because I, I actually knew that I was good and people had told me that I was so, I didn't doubt my ability.
But I also wasn't practicing as much. Like I didn't seek to be in an orchestra or be a first cellist. I was comfortable knowing that at least I could do one thing well, and that most people in this arena agreed I could do it well.
Thank God, you know, thank God for that.
But I do, I do remember we always try to make our dad say things about us like, we'd just try to get him to note, to verbally note the differences between us, because he goes to great lengths to treat us the exact same. I mean, every morning when he would make us hot chocolate in the winter, we would come into the kitchen and he would be at eye level with the cups and pouring in each cup to make sure that he didn't give one of us a drop more than the other.
And it was very sweet. But the running joke is we'd always be like, tell me you love me more than her or tell, just any, just say anything that lets me know that you can see the difference between us. And one day I'd worn him out and he sort of jokingly but very sincerely said, “Okay, okay, okay. When it comes to music, you have more natural ability, but she works harder.”
And I just was like, thank you for saying it. Like it's true. No one's offended. And he was horrified that he said it. But it was one of the best, gratifying moments for me personally because I was like, yes, we're different people. Yes, we're different. You're absolutely right. I'm obnoxious about my natural ability. And she works really, really hard at it. And so I think if we had a very different relationship when it came to music and then later to writing. You know, we both started out in poetry, but I moved to fiction partly because I didn't wanna be in competition with her. I didn't wanna be applying to the same competitions and awards and things like that.
And it was a relief, as hard as it was to switch genres. It was a relief to be in a different world. I had different responsibilities as a writer. We weren't doing the same thing. And there was safety in that too.
Rachel: So your parents worked really hard to treat you equally. Which as you said is really kind of amazing and impressive in some ways. What are some of the other feelings associated with that?
A: So I'd say our mom just treated us sort of like siblings.She didn't work super hard to treat us as equal. She treated us as individuals and then our dad, he was really—I think maybe the twin thing stuck with him and he was like, well, what do I do? Cause he had twins in his family. And so for some reason I think that he felt he had to work hard. He had to work harder as a father to figure out how to, to do right by us. And so to this day when he writes his birthday cards, he'll write the same message verbatim in each card. And I've expressed to him that what he's attempting to do and what the effect of what he's actually doing, they're complete opposites. Like he's attempting to treat us as equals. But he's also erasing our identity by writing the same message in each card, cause we're not the same person. But he doesn't ever want us to read into anything that he writes or says that might communicate, you are more of this than her or you're better at this than her, or I love you more than her.
And that sentiment is very, very sweet. So we've stopped fighting him when it comes to the cards, but even when it comes to buying gifts, he'll just buy us two of the same thing. Like he genuinely mentally can't, can't get past it.
Rachel: Do you feel like he knows who each of you are?
A: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. He just has a hard time verbalizing it cause he thinks that we'll take offense to it. But I know that he knows.
Rachel: What are some of the other ways that he expresses that knowledge?
A: Him and I have a warmer relationship than him and my sister. Growing up we all butted heads for different reasons, but he knew that if he upset my sister that she was gonna wage war and that he wasn't gonna survive it. And so, I mean, just a few weeks ago she texted him and I was like, tell him that he's your best friend, it's gonna make his entire day. And he was like beaming from ear to ear. Our mom was like, I don't know what you texted him, but this man is like on a different level. But if I texted him and was like, “Hey, best friend,” like, he already knows that we're best friends. So it wouldn't have the same effect. (Laughs) I think that he knows that I'm in his corner and that I'll defend him if other people in the family, you know, if they end up locking horns with him.
But at the same time he knows that if he offends me, then he's lost his only soldier. So, it's an interesting dynamic.
Rachel: When you were growing up, did you spend time separately with your parents or was it always you and I_____ together?
A: It was always us together. always us together. Either our mom was driving us to all these rehearsals and we were obviously either playing in the same orchestra as kids or we were going to the same dance practices. And same thing for our dad.
Even when we would go on hikes or things like that, it was always us and our dad or us and our mom to go to the mall. It was never individual. I think it would've been nice to have that separate time. As I got older, I thought about it. Cause I, I've seen other parents and they will go outta their way to be like, all right, today is just me and my three-year-old, or tomorrow's me and my five-year-old. And I think something about the age difference allows them to do that and compartmentalize. But that never happened with us.
Rachel: What were some of the other things that were going on? Were you in different, classes in school? Did you have different friends or the same friends?
A: We were definitely in different classes, I think for most of our academic careers. Maybe in kindergarten we were in the same class. And then after that, I think schools and teachers made it a point to have us in separate classes. and it just so happened that all of our friends, all of our closest friends, were the same growing up. Now that we've gotten older, that's changed. But when we were going to the same schools and there were only 50 kids in our graduating class, it's not like there are so many people to choose from.
But we ended up sharing the same best friends up until we were probably 18. Even today, our closest, closest best friends who are like family, we share them. But, I do have best friends outside of that today, and she does not.
I was the one who would go out and get the friends and then bring them back to and then if we both were like, yeah, we like them and then they could handle having twins as friends—cause I think that was the test for them, not do we like each other, but can you handle having two of us in your life at once? And do you even know how to navigate that kind of relationship?
I'm a little more extroverted, although I can be super shy. And so even when we were kids, I mean, we lived in Spain for a little bit and we didn't speak the language. And I'd go to my dad on the playground and be like, “How do I say hi, do you wanna be my friend?” And he'd tell me and I'd memorize it and I'd run back to this one person on the playground. I'd be like, I'd just repeat it verbatim. And they'd say something and I'd run back to my dad and I was like, okay, what do I say now? And I just go back and forth and I_____ would be like on the swings doing her thing, knowing that I'd come back with a friend for us to play with And I think that sort of continued as we got older I think because I'm naturally a little more open, not necessarily warmer, just more open as a person. People are pretty receptive and they feel, you know, they feel kindness and they open up pretty easily.
And so then friendships ensue from there and they meet I_____ and they see she's a gem. But whether or not they would've met each other in the wild, I can't say. But certainly the friendships have stuck.
And so even through high school, we each pretty much shared, I would say, like one best friend. And then in college we had two best friends. and I never felt like, well, but this is mine. Like I did the work. I never felt that way. And also, if it just so happened, I hit it off with this one person and I_____ never connected with them I could still be their friend. It wasn't like a, either you're down for the program with the both of us, or you're not gonna be my friend. It was never that, it just so happened to work where there was synergy amongst the three of us when we got together.
Rachel: Within these friendships, do you feel like you and I_____ had different ways of relating to your friends?
A: Definitely. Even the way that we text or she doesn't text, to hang out with people. and the way she expresses her love and the dynamics that she has, even with our closest friends, are completely different than the dynamics that we share. One in particular who's like a brother to us, they fight and that's like how they show their love, by like talking about the most honest stuff.
And then if I see her doing that, then to offer a little bit of balance I'm the one who's like, it's okay. You're all right. Wipe your tears. It's okay. and then sometimes she'll be like the clown for the afternoon who's like, making everyone laugh. And then I'm like, well, yep. I take a back seat and laugh at her jokes.
And sometimes the rules are reversed where I'm doing standup for an hour and she's, you know, clapping in the audience with my friend. Yeah. So I think there's some balancing aspect and then there are some relationships that are just fundamentally different with our friends.
The way we talk to them is different. The way we text is completely different.
Rachel: You mentioned earlier that one of the tests is, can they handle being friends with twins? What have you experienced that taught you that that's something not everyone can handle?
A: Meeting people who get overwhelmed. And you can look in their eyes and they're just... like we're twins—we can finish each other's sentences. Sometimes we talk over each other if we get excited and not everyone's used to that dynamic. And so having someone who's a third party who is not privy to like the full lives that we lead and the sort of the mind that we, like the consciousness that we share in a way, it can be overwhelming for them to even have a conversation with twins. And the ping pong, the visual ping pong in their eyes of going back and forth between watching us talk. I can tell if someone's getting overstimulated, and if that's the case, then we feel like we have to like, you know, tone down and hold back so that they feel a little more at ease. But that's not a sustainable relationship necessarily. Sometimes they can grow into the role of, yes, I can be a friend to both, and sometimes they're only meant to be a friend to one.
Rachel: When you walk into a room together, what is the feeling that you have?
A: We make lots of jokes about this cause we know that there's power that comes with entering any room as a twin. People are watching and looking and I think even growing up, lots of kids would be like, oh yeah, such and such said that they know you. And we'd be like, what are you talking about? They'd be like, “Yeah, the twins!” And I, as I got older, I realized that it's easier for people to remember us than it is for us to remember them, because they're looking at us as a package deal. And for them, seeing twins is such a rarity that had stuck out in their minds.
The joke is this; we have animal totems. Hers is a fox, mine is a snake. Whenever we walk into a room, we're like, yeah, it's serpent and fox energy. And everyone's gonna feel it. And it changes the dynamic. But it's a lot of power when you have two people who, you know, know each other deeply and there are two sets of eyes looking at you for your one set of eyes. It's a lot of power, and I think that's why I try to be as kind and warm as I possibly can, cause I've seen people be overwhelmed even if we didn't say anything. But we also do love the fact that there is a little bit of inherent power when you walk into a room, cause people are just sort of shocked. No one was expecting to see twins.
No one's really ever expecting to see twins, although we're all out here all the time. Even when I see twins, I feel like my day just improved, and I'm a twin. Like, it's, it's so silly, but I understand the psychology. I do get it.
Rachel: So by contrast, what does it feel to walk into a room by yourself?
A: I still feel powerful, but I know that people aren't looking at me because I'm in this sort of, this like couple or this duo that they're intrigued by psychologically. This is another conversation that I literally had last night where my friends were like, do you ever get like knots in your stomach or butterflies when you walk into your room and you don't know people?
And I was like, no. And I_____ was like, yeah, I do. And I was like, do you really? She was like, I get anxious all the time. And I was like, I just hope it's not awkward. And then you just go from there, like chest forward head, like leaning into it. So I think I still feel as powerful, but I know that people aren't looking and examining for the same reasons. and I know that I also get to make my own impressions separate from the person beside me, and that they're not coming to immediate conclusions about who I am based off of who's around me.
Rachel: Do you feel like you make a different impression when you're on your own versus when you're with your sister?
A: I actually think it's the same. I'm the same person, but I think I might be even more outgoing when I'm socializing because I don't have someone with me who I'm like, I wanna make sure that she's comfortable all the time.
And I know that not every social scenario is comfortable for everyone in the same way. I have a pretty high barometer, like it would take a lot for me to feel uncomfortable, for better or for worse. But I think when we're together, I always wanna make sure that she's comfortable in parties or, or larger social events. But when I'm by myself, I'm just floating and dancing through the room and like laughing super loud and doing whatever I want, however I want, and then I go home and don't think about this.
So like, I think afterwards, I know I_____ will examine how she socialized. I don't do that. so I just, I live in a different kind of way, but I appreciate how she does have that introspection. I think I just move through with a little more freedom.
Rachel: Is there any tension that comes from having very different experiences of the same thing?
A: Weirdly, no. As much as I love having someone who I think is interpreting most scenarios similarly to myself, it's also fantastic when we don't, and for whatever reason our private lives and our public lives, there's no cross, there's no bleeding over. So the way I relate to her is my sister, like, she's the absolute love of my life. Like I couldn't do it without her. She's my favorite person in the world. She brings me so much joy on a daily basis. And I shower her with compliments every day. And I would, the things I do with her, I would never do with anybody else. Like I've never done it with anyone I've dated, even with best friends. Like our relationship is so different and that has not been affected for whatever reason by anything that's taken place outside of the walls of our own home, even when we were younger.
Cause I was like, the way people are treating us has nothing to do with how you and I see each other and everything to do with how they see us and how they seek to understand or don't understand us and their own sort of personal world that they're projecting.
And luckily there hasn't been, or I don't know if it's luckily, but there just hasn't been any crossed wires there. They're separate. And I think that's why I cherish the friendship and the sisterhood that much more because it's still as precious and cute as it was when we were two years old.
Nothing has really changed. I mean, many things have changed, but the same sweetness that existed then still exists now. We haven't been hardened by how people have been cruel to us or treated us or compared us, which is a wonderful thing to report, .
Rachel: Not to harp on the painful ballet memories.
A: Yeah, no, let's go back to it. Yeah. (Laughs)
Rachel: Cause that's a moment where I think a lot of friends, siblings, they could have taken the other route. You know, this is your fault, or you're the reason that I'm experiencing this pain. How do you feel like you stayed on each other's team?
A: I think the thing is, I never saw her feeding into the dynamic that existed when we were in rehearsals or ballet classes, ever. She didn't say anything about it, but she never fed into it. And I knew that really she was there to play the game, which was to be the best.
She just wanted to be the best. That was it. And it had nothing to do with me. Even if I wasn't in the room, she still wanted to be the best.
And I wasn't upset at her for it. In fact, I'd look at her and be like, we're made of the same stuff. If she can do it, I know that I can do it too. She's a barometer for what I'm capable of in some ways. And so it was painful to know that she was able to do it with so much ease. And for me, I just, I just couldn't do it in that exact way. But she never fed into it.
Around that same time, I also developed scoliosis when I was 11. So I was diagnosed, and then I had to wear a back brace for several years of my life from 12 to 16. I wore this really intense plastic brace that came from like right underneath my armpit all the way down to my hip. And it was this crazy shape and I had to wear it under my clothes for 21 hours a day.
And I got really bad rashes from it, especially when it was hot outside, and I had to figure out how to camouflage it because the shape of it was not meant to fit my body. It was meant to correct what I had going on. So it protruded in weird ways. and I avoided hugs from people cause I didn't wanna have to talk about it. I had to buy shirts that were like three sizes too big. And I was sort of battling with that too. So between that and dance, I was like, and then, you know, wanting to be an A student, I was like, listen, I can't go mad. I can't go crazy. I can only fight so many battles at once. She's my friend, she's my sister.
I didn't have energy to make an enemy out of anyone else who wasn't inherently one.
I think ballet prepared me for that, that the world wasn't gonna treat us similarly. And then our bodies weren't gonna be similar, which I never expected that they would, but I didn't think that they would deviate in that way so quickly. And that I'd be living with this thing for the rest of my life, essentially, and that I'd have to figure out ways to correct it. I mean, there were moments where we talked about getting surgery and then putting like six screws and like metal poles in my back, and that was a nightmare. And I was going to doctor's appointments all the time by myself and like super nervous to get my curve measured and to see if it had progressed or not.
And I was doing all those things by myself with my mom. So at no point was that a journey that I ever expected her to join me in on. I think I expected her to be a little more emotionally supportive. At the same time we were kids and she had gotten what she wanted up until that point in life. And so I, I don't think she even knew how to support someone who wasn't getting exactly what they wanted, And so when you're 11, what's a kid gonna say to another, like, even sisters, what could your sister say to you when you're like really going through it and like crying every day looking in the mirror, doing exercises, but like seeing that your body is like fundamentally uneven and imbalanced and I'm gonna have to live with that forever.
And I was just trying to reckon through like, I don't wanna hate my body. I don't. I don't wanna look in the mirror and cringe at what I see. At the same time I'm a teenager. I'm getting messaging from all sorts of media, from school that certain bodies are attractive and other bodies simply are not.
And despite being naturally thin or naturally athletically built, I just will never have an even body. And I, I just, there was a moment where we—I went to get physical therapy over spring break. Like I literally spent my spring break in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, amid snow, spending, you know, 12 hours a day doing workout stuff with other kids who had scoliosis.
And I_____ was getting her nails done and going to the movies. And I was like, well if this is not a metaphor for how our lives have branched in different directions, I don't know what is. And she was like, what's wrong? Why are you so upset? I was like, I'm literally over here sweating and paying for having this physical condition that I didn't ask for. And you went to see a film today on our spring break. You went to get your nails done today.
And then we had a therapy session and the lady was like, well, do you want your sister to come in? And I was like, why? She's not a part of this world. What would, how would I benefit from her sitting there listening to the sob story of our collective lives? Not that I was gatekeeping and being like, well we have scoliosis and you don't. It just was like, why, what would she benefit from listening to this?
I think I wanted more support then. And we talked about it now. I was like, I really could have used a little more softness from you growing up. And I think we said that everything was so normal and my mom was just like, this is just what it is. We have to work through it. And I appreciate that. But I could have used a slight bit more tenderness, especially with the back brace and whatnot.
Cause I was like, we made lots of jokes, but were they as funny as we’d hoped they were? And I think that was an attempt to normalize it, but it was pretty painful. But again, I didn't talk that much about it out loud. Despite talking a lot socially, when it comes to my emotions and other things that I'm processing, I don't really talk about it out loud. I just handle it myself for better or for worse.
I thought she would see, I mean, cause she was seeing all of it, like the back spasms I was getting in the middle of the night, like I would have to spend 30 minutes a day doing exercises. We had to buy gear for, like—I had a whole room just for like these crazy things you could never imagine your body would do just to help combat or not allow my curve to progress.
And I was like, well, if you're seeing it every day, like you're seeing it every day, surely that's enough evidence for you. I don't think I'd have to say it out loud. But again, She was living a different life. And so she was seeing it, but she wasn't taking note of it and thinking that it was painful to me, because I was just doing it and I also wasn't talking about it.
We grew up with two other twins who were girls and we all looked kind of similar and they had like these Victoria's Secret curves. And we went on vacation together and I was like, yeah, mentally I can't do this. Like buying bathing suits was really challenging for me. And then I'd be around these three people who not only had like, just even bodies, like symmetrical bodies, but we're developing differently. And I just was like, wow. I guess I'm just an adolescent boy who's flat chested and has a six pack and like, one leg longer than the other. Like, I had to wear a lift in one of my shoes. It was the least glamorous experience of my life. And I just remember feeling so, so terrible every time we would have to get into a pool together.
And despite that, I still had fun, but having three bodies who were similar to mine but also radically different, made it so much worse. And then at some point I was like, I refuse to be the girl, the woman, whatever, who looks at photos of herself and you know, tears it apart. I just said, I can't do it and I won't do it. And so I'm still in the process of reconditioning my brain to say “The way you look is fantastic.” Like if I'm on the beach and someone takes a photo, I'm going to accept it for what it is.
We'll just start with the acceptance, then we can move up to “you look beautiful” if we need to, But let's just start with the basics. Like, you've got a body and that's fantastic. Pretty stellar. We're starting at a really high place. It's functioning, it's actually healthy. We love that as well. And now we're just, we're building. I'm delighting in buying bikinis these days. Like I just bought two more last week. I just used to wear one-pieces. I used to hate it. I used to hate it so much. And I'm just coming around to it, I'm getting there. But I do look at her body and every once in a while I'm like—just, it's so, even. I'm not even focused on shape. It's just even. Like when you bend over, both sides of your lower back are even—what's that like? Your waist is the same on both sides. What's that like?
Like I'm living this one side is curved and the other is straight. It's an interesting reality for me to reckon with.
Rachel: I wanna talk a little bit about college time. I know that you ended up going to school together.
A: Yeah, we ended up applying to all the same schools cause we have the same interests, career-wise and otherwise.
And we both wanted to be in the city, so we applied to the same schools, got accepted at the same schools with the same sort of scholarships and whatnot, which was fantastic.
And then when we got to college, completely different classes, and completely different friends for the first time as well.
Rachel: What was it like for you to be friends with people who didn't know your sister?
A: It felt normal. I mean, it's so strange cause we'd lived our entire lives not having that. And especially in grad school, we went to completely different grad schools. No one knew who I was. No one knew who she was. and then it was this fun little party trick when she showed up one day and they were like, oh my god.
And then they knew I had a twin sister who did poetry and they thought she was amazing. And I was like, yeah, she is, but she's my best kept secret. But yeah, no one had any reference points. But I'd been making friends for both of us our entire lives, so I was never questioning whether people liked me for me or the person next to me. So when I was in a situation where I was making friends by myself, I was like, well this is what I've been doing my entire life.
Rachel: Were you studying the same thing?
A: In grad school, I changed, I went, I studied fiction, I mean, still creative writing, but our focuses and concentrations were different.
She studied poetry and I studied fiction. And those worlds, again, despite being creative, are entirely different. And I missed the people, I missed the poets that I used to be around in undergrad a lot, cause I still felt like one, I still moved like one, I was just writing in a different format.
So I kind of lamented the loss of the cohort and the overall energy of being around poets versus fiction writers. It was very stale. It was very one-dimensional. Actually people thought I was like this rebellious, and just going against the grain, and what is she doing? They're like, are you sure you're writing fiction? Are you sure you're meant to be in this program? And I was like, yeah, actually, the fact that you're questioning me lets me know that I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.
I was really operating completely differently. Like she was writing poetry and people were like, yes, this is poetry. And I was writing fiction and people were like, are you okay? Like, like, can you write normally?
So it was kind of fun for me cause I got to play. And no one had to be like, is your sister okay? You know, they'd have to come to me with their concerns. They didn't have to go to her. So I was like, I'm gonna do exactly what I want, how I want to,
Rachel: So you ended up switching to fiction, but when you first started in college, you were both writing poetry, right? Did you have any fears around being in that shared space?
A: The good news is our voices were super different on the page. If they were similar, I would be very concerned. and then I think really by sophomore year, I sort of knew that.
I wanted more than what that genre had to offer. So I started to take more classes in fiction after two years. Even though I got my degree in poetry and so I knew prior to applying to grad school, prior to even graduating from undergrad, that I was going to transition. And that I think was a relief.
My mom sort of jokingly said one day she's like, “Well, I can't have you guys competing against each other professionally as poets, so someone's gotta make a change.” I was like, well, I hear you loud and clear. And luckily, I took a fiction class and I thought, this is super challenging. I have no idea what I'm doing. This must be the answer. So I ended up doing that and it was a very rough transition. And I just was like, this is a thing I'm supposed to do cause I want to, but also it's a relief to know that we aren't going to be in the same genre.
Cause now that she's getting her book published in September, I don't have to think, well mine's gonna come out maybe next year and that might be terrible for us. And like, how are critics gonna receive it and how are they gonna, they're gonna wanna compare it—cause there are twins who write poetry who have existed for like decades and people—the Dickman brothers—and people always talk about them, and they sort of read their books in tandem and that's fine.
But we've done so much of that together. I'm like, certain things just have to be for us as individuals. Like she got a nose piercing. I love nose piercings. I will never get it done. She rocks a buzz cut. I mean, not currently, but like she's gonna return to it. I'll never cut my hair above my shoulder.
There are just certain things I will not do on principle because that's just her territory and we each deserve to have our own thing. I think it gives us some space from the outside world looking in, drawing all these comparisons, making all these annoying, irritating remarks all the time. Especially as we get older. I think they think it's stranger that we're more similar than not as we creep up into our thirties.
Rachel: I know that you've done collaborative work with your sister, and you end up taking on different roles. Can you talk to me about that process a little bit?
A: So rocky. So rocky. I understand that people are like, you know, don't work with people you marry. I feel like she's my spouse basically and I'm just like, yeah, you're right. We hadn't determined our roles before we got into collaborating. So we thought, yes, we're both gonna send off emails and handle logistics and then we're both gonna enter the studio space and do 50-50. We're gonna both warm up the dancers and we're gonna both create the choreo. And that just didn't end up happening. I think we just sort of fell into the roles that maybe suited us and our natures better. But then we ended up resenting the other person for not doing more of the thing that we were doing.
So when she was like finding studio space and emailing the dancers with links and references for what we were trying to go for, she resented me for not doing that too, cause she felt like she was the businesswoman. And then I had the luxury of creating. But of course when we got into the studio, the pressure to create was immense, cause we'd never done it before. And I would create material and she'd be like, well let's try it like this. And then I'd be like, well if you're not actually offering new material, can you really refine it or revise it? And so I think we clashed a lot in the beginning and just now are we probably realizing what our roles are.
I could be doing more of the emailing and whatnot and leading conversation beginning at the top of rehearsals, and she could be doing more of the creating actual physical material in the studio. But we both understand what we're best at, too. So I can't resent her for not doing more of the thing that doesn't come super naturally to her under those pressured circumstances of like, we have an hour, we paid for an hour, we have to create something cause we see our dancers in 30 minutes.
Rachel: When you have the outcome of your work together—what is the feeling compared to when you finish a story on your own?
A: When it comes to dance we don't just choreograph it, but we perform in it. And I always feel like, because I wear more of the choreographer's hat when I get to perform, I can't 100% live in the performance, cause I'm still thinking as a choreographer.
Whereas she, again, can attack just the performance because she sort of was embodying the dancer all along. So she's not sitting in two particular roles. She's sort of more comfortably situated in one. And I feel like I'm thinking, are we all spaced out properly? On top of, am I emoting? Am I executing?
When it comes to writing a story, I just feel the relief of, I've done it. And I, again, I didn't have to collaborate with anyone. So again, I didn't meet any resistance outside of my own ego and my revision brain. But I got to do exactly what I wanted and I got to live through it as the writer and the editor, which are two roles that I have to do.
But there's no one to—she's not sitting there doing the writing while I'm editing. I did all of it myself. I played all the roles.
Rachel: What does confrontation look like between you two?
A: Oh, it can get brutal. I mean, in the past few years it's really toned down incredibly. But because we're big on the truth, we'll just say it. We'll just say the thing that we're thinking on top of our brain, You know, just so lacking in compassion.
But we're like, but it's the truth. And you had to hear it. And I think when we first started choreographing, there was a lot of tension and we just wouldn't—at a certain point, we wouldn't even say things to each other cause we knew that that would be the trigger that would, the tornado would begin again and you just don't even have time for that.
We're literally in the studio, we paid for this. We do not have time to get into another fight. And I think we just started to realize in the past few years that A, we don't enjoy fighting, I prefer communicating, but our communication styles are also different when we argue.
So we're just, we're talking now more than you know, yelling or making little snide remarks to remind you you're not doing the thing you said you would do today, you're not also doing it well at all. We're not doing that as much anymore, which is a relief because we used to really go for it.
Rachel: Do you talk about how you should treat each other, and how you do treat each other?
A: Only in fights. When we feel like someone's not treating another person correctly or you're not lifting your weight. When we have those sorts of conversations, then that's an opportunity for us to say like, wait, pause for a second.
And actually we hadn't talked about the ballet wound our entire lives until we signed up for this. I woke up one morning crying, like I crying out of nowhere. And I was like, I don't know if I've ever voiced this to you, but I, like, I I, I suffered, it was really painful for me growing up in the ballet world. I don't think she, I thought she saw it, but she didn't see the depths of it. I started thinking about the differences in how we were treated growing up and things like that, and the pain that comes with that. And so I actually verbalized for the first time in 29 years what that experience was like. And she felt terrible, but she actually got to hear it for the first time. And that helped a lot in healing. And I didn't, I never foresaw that happening, like ever.
Rachel: What is the time that you've spent away from each other?
A: No time. No time. And I do think about that. No time. I mean, when we went to grad school, that was the only time that we were really leading separate lives. And even in our work now, we lead separate lives, but because of Covid we're in the same house still working. And I do think what it would be like for one of us to live in a completely different city, to even live alone.
I've never had a bedroom to myself my entire life. Like ever, ever. And I, I never, you know, if I wanna go on a walk, she's right there with me. I've never gone on a walk by myself. Not, I mean, I've done stuff by myself, but never sort of consistently, like I didn't, I've never gone out to eat dinner by myself.
I've never gone to a movie by myself. I've never done things like that because she's always there. And if I wanna go to a party, but I'm like, I don't know too many people, it might be kind of awkward. I'll just bring her and I can still go wherever I want. But with someone who brings me comfort. I think about that often.
Cause I think the older that we get, I think she thinks our life plans are pretty similar. And in many ways they are, but in many ways they aren't. Even in terms of location, I would love to live in New Mexico. I would love to live in the desert. And I know that she would love to live in upstate New York. And we just haven't spent time apart that way. She's never even gone on a trip without me. Every trip we've ever taken it, it's been together.
And so I'm curious, part of me thinks that it really won't be as radically different as we suspect, but I don't know if we're good at having phone calls. I think we're so used to talking in person that our phone calls are terrible. We're terrible over the phone. We dunno how to talk. The good news about her is that we're both really independent despite leading so much of our lives together.
So even if we're, even if we're sort of working in the same space, we will not talk to each other for hours and we are cognizant that we just need space as individuals. And so I love when she goes to hang out with her friends. I love when she gets to experience life without me, that brings me so much joy. And then I get time by myself in the apartment. So I think we try to find ways for that to happen. We'll close doors. We just don't infringe upon each other's space, especially when we're working. Or if somebody just wants to rest and the other person doesn't.
Rachel: I'm curious about your bedroom.
A: Yeah. (Laughs) Many people are, yeah.
Rachel: Can you describe what that is like?
A: Yeah. It's the same thing we've had since we were born. Two twin beds in a single bedroom. Yes. Lots of people have conversations with us about, like, if you're dating someone, how does that work? You don't invite people over. And it's like, no, we don't invite people over unless they're friends. And again, I've, I've never had a room by myself. I've never had—I just don't know what that would feel like. I'm so curious. I would love to experience it, but I don't know what that's like. And I anticipate that if we ever get married, I don't know, who knows, but if that ever happens, that'll also be a really interesting bridge to cross. Cause thus far there hasn't been any other, not even competing for us, but other person who's been so important that we really felt like we had to split our time up and that there was a new person to introduce who wasn't a best friend, but was something more. That hasn't really happened yet.
So I don't know how I'll navigate that either.
Rachel: Is there anything else that came up for you when you were thinking about this conversation?
A: I've noticed recently when friends hang out with both of us, especially if we take trips with these friends, is that they've never seen our sisterhood outside of a two hour hangout. So if they see it for 72 hours, then they see the ins and outs of how it operates. And the things that we do that we thought were normal are things that they apparently have never seen before. and it ends up being the really cute stuff that we do.
We took a hike and I_____ for whatever reason, decided to wear Doc Martens that she had never broken in before for the first time on a three hour uphill hike. And I told her beforehand, I was like, that's the most insane stupid thing I've ever heard in my life. You're gonna suffer.
And we got to the top of the mountain and her heels were literally bleeding. And so without conversation, it was already understood that she had suffered enough. And so it was now time for me to—we switched shoes. We didn't talk about it. We just took our shoes off and just switched shoes. And our friend was like, that's so crazy. That's like a superhuman superpower. And I was like, in what way? Someone is suffering. You're just, and you wear the same shoe size. And she was really moved by that. We do this all the time in really, in smaller ways. Even sometimes she'll untie my shoes if I don't wanna bend down to untie them.
I think I took for granted that level of either intimacy or sweetness or just willingness to, to do whatever to make sure that other person is also comfortable. But I mean, there are lots of things that we won't do for each other, like get water for her if she's in the bedroom.
But apparently I'll, you know, I'll switch shoes if she's bleeding. So there are limits.
Rachel: It seems like your day-to-day lives right now are very different.
A: Yeah. Super.
Rachel: Can you describe how that shows up in your relationship with each other right now?
A: Well, she works a nine to five and really she works more than a nine to five cause she works on the weekends, too. And I work several part-time jobs that allow me the freedom to write and to create and to read.
She's making more money than I am, so she's more financially secure than I am. So there's a trade off, obviously in this particular capitalistic structure. But, she, I think she wants part of the freedom that I have in my schedule. And so I was convinced for a while that she resented me for sleeping in until eight o'clock in the morning if I didn't have to be at work at nine. And I didn't have to perform the same way she did in the somewhat corporate world. I could wear jeans to work if I wanted to. I felt like there was tension even in smaller conversations of "You didn't take the trash out."
But really what she was saying was, you have all this extra time. Why are you not doing more work in this particular domestic sphere when you can afford to? Cause I'm already sort of burning the candle at both ends when it comes to the professional life.
I didn't wanna be the reminder of the thing that she wanted, that she didn't have. I try to counteract that by doing more chores or ordering groceries all the time and making sure things are taken care of so that when she is not working, she doesn't have to worry about the smaller things.
Cause I have the extra time, but I also do feel a little guilty sometimes cause I see that she's working around the clock and I simply am not, and I'm also delighting in not doing that thing, cause I do not derive joy from burnout. And I've done that before.
I don't wanna live like that. But it's a luxury to, to look at someone who's working that hard and for me to say, it's a shame you're working that hard.
Rachel: Is finances ever a thing between you two?
A: Oh my God, yeah. Yes, yes. She's sort of always made more money than I have. When we were in grad school too, she got a full ride and they literally paid for this apartment. They were paying her rent, not just giving her a free ride, but they were paying for her, rent and our groceries. And I went back to [...] and they gave their students no money.
So she was financing our relationship for a few years, and that dynamic had entered where she was like, but I'm the breadwinner and this is my money. And we'd have conversations where it's like, no, it's our money. And what was interesting is that she was making all this money, but only took two classes a semester and I had six classes a semester and I was making nothing. And we had lots of conversations about, when do we step up when someone's drowning in work? It's your turn to step up. And I think even the responsibility too—it being the elder sibling's, like if we go out to eat with our parents, she'll pay for us. But she also has more money in her bank. I'm, you know, I'm the poor one. I'm happy—I'm poor, but I'm happy. You know what I mean? And so it's a little bit of a joke.
I do seek to balance that out cause I don't want her to feel financial responsibility all the time.
Rachel: What kind of changes over time have you felt in your identity as a twin?
A: The attention and the comparison that random strangers would make with us on the street has lessened a lot. And I think people have said that. I mean, we're fraternal to begin with, but we look very, very similar, I'm aware. And I think people—I mean there are two camps. Either we look less similar now or more similar than ever. I don't know which one is true. But I think that, I think that we are just even solidifying in our own personalities and how we like to dress and present to the world and how we navigate the world.
So I feel like we're being treated less like twins in a certain kind of way. And yet the closeness and intimacy of the twinship that we share in our personal private sphere remains.
I think we're, just in the past few years, understanding that we're radically different. And so I look at this relationship as I would any relationship where I'm like, yes, we're separate individual people. Like if I was dating someone, I wouldn't expect them to clean the same way that I do or to eat the same way that I do. And yet I expect her to do those things, or at least I did up until a few years ago. And we just are now sort of being like, oh my goodness. Yes, you're a full human being. And despite having had this similar experience growing up, the same house, similar values, we move through this world radically differently, in great ways and in small ways.
And so we're just now realizing that we just want harmony, and we also have to honor that we're different. Not shame the other person for being different, but honoring that yes—when we first meet people, she's more reserved. Okay. And? I can't ask her to be more extroverted. That's not her personality. And that also not the answer to whatever harmony we're trying to achieve.
One thing that we didn't talk about is the fact that I_____ acts, I don't act. And that's a world that I had never entered with her.
The greatest joy of my life was being able to witness her on stage and not be on stage with her. And that had never happened ever before. We were always on stage together. And even though I have interest in that world, I was like, I'm never, I'm, I'm not gonna touch it. On principle again, you deserve to have certain things for yourself. And so our senior year, she was part of a production that I wasn't. That never happened before. She had a whole crew and cast and they had all these experiences and spent, I don't know, three hours each day of the week together for six months.
And that was a world I had never been a part of. I didn't know anyone. I didn't even understand how it fully worked. And she was so happy. She was so happy.
To sit in an audience and have no clue as to what she was gonna say or anything at all—I mean, they were taking their clothes off and doing crazy things. And these 20 year olds were just going for it. And I was thrilled. And I was like, I love not knowing. I actually do not seek to know everything about you, but I really, really enjoy learning things about you and getting to watch you and getting to actually study how she moves on stage and how she talks and getting to experience her as someone who is fully outside of myself, as a stranger almost.
And so even now when it comes to things like that, it's honoring the individuality of, even if I do have somewhat interest in this, I think you deserve to have it more, cause you want it a little more, you're more interested.
And again, we need not do everything together.
Rachel: So it's almost like the most distance you've ever been able to put between you, and you got to see her more clearly?
A: Absolutely. I loved it.
Spotlight hitting her little face and I loved it. Every bit of it.
Rachel: I have a final question, which I ask everyone. When do you feel most like yourself?
A: It's honestly by myself, but also in nature. That's it. Any bit of nature. But when I am by myself—not being perceived, no reflective surfaces, just existing, that's when I'm coming home. I’m coming home. I mean, ideally as minimal clothing on as possible. That's when I feel like I'm inhabiting myself and I'm also seeing myself in not other humans, but other creatures around me.
