Lucy L.

Rachel: Lucy, if you could just introduce yourself for the recording in whatever way you feel comfortable.

Lucy: So, I'm Lucy Lake and I am here to talk about my experience of being a twin.

I was born in Melbourne, Australia and moved to Tasmania with my parents and my sister when I was about nine months old, I think. So I've grown up in Tasmania.

Tasmania's a an island at the bottom of Australia. It's quite cold, the coldest part of Australia.

My parents are not married, which is normal for me, but not normal for some people.

And they were together until Emma and I were probably about seven, and then they split up and were separated for most of my childhood. So we spent our childhood, we moved a lot, moved houses a lot, so we've never had one family home.

That was just normal for us. But I suppose I've always sort of wished that I had a real, like a place I've always wanted, wanted a, a home place. And then when we were 15, mom and dad actually got back together.

So we, from about the age of 16, we had one home and stayed there for probably about, six or seven years, which is the longest time we've kind of had one space.

We had a childhood that was going outside and just playing, being very creative. A couple of our houses were in the bush, so we played a lot in the bush, with our neighbors.

But mostly, mostly our childhood was just Emma and I, outside of school.

We were quite, kind of wild, a little bit eccentric children, but we were also extremely sensitive and, and I think very hyper-aware of things like comparison and, different being different.

Daddy is English and mum is from New Zealand. And so we never, well, we always felt, I think, a bit different that we didn't have connections in Tasmania at all. We both, as children, spoke with English accents, very English accents, which is quite strange but we did and got teased a lot for that as well as compared a lot for being twins.

So I think that, we being very sensitive children, that heightened—we, we really noticed it. And I think I personally was very anxious from childhood and I feel like those things, fed into that.

So yeah, childhood, you know, beautiful freedom. You know, a really lovely life out in the world. But also, an underlying anxiety throughout our childhood.

We also had, from very early on, a kind of shared best friend. We met her when we were five and and she would spend a lot of time with us,  on holidays as well. And so for us, I feel like she provided that kind of balance that we always kind of sought for. I think it would be great for us if we had a third party growing up as twins. We would've loved to have another sibling.

And interestingly, we do actually have another sibling, who we met in adulthood. But, throughout our childhood, Ella, our friend Ella, kind of provided that little third party, and she's given us a lot of insights into our being twins that we probably wouldn't have picked up on otherwise.

I think that, being a twin for us, I'm not sure if it's for everyone, but when we're both sensitive people and overthinkers—it felt quite isolating. I think we felt like we were a bit strange or a bit weird, and I think that having a third party, it normalizes it.

So in calling out, you know, little, eccentricities or little funny things that we, we did, and in kind of verbalizing that it, it made it feel less of a weird kind of secret feeling and more of just like a—it made me feel calmer that she could do that. And she's done that all through our lives, you know, there'll be certain things—

I'll give you an example. You know, I've seen twins getting very fixated on the way that they look and that each other looks. And I've seen things of twins getting plastic surgery to look exactly identical, and this kind of thing.

And superficially, it, it seems like, oh, they just want to be really identical twins because they think it's cool. But actually I think that this fixation on looks comes more from being constantly compared and a feeling that fear of someone saying “you're the ugly twin,” or “she's the ugly twin.” Or “you’re hotter than her,” or, you know, these comparisons that really hurt. And so I, we, we didn't realize we did this, but for a lot of our lives—and we still do it, we are very, obviously much more conscious of it now— but we would pick at how each other were standing, and we'd hit each other's tummies and say, “put your tummy in,” or we'd say, “do your neck,” which meant stop having a double chin. And we'd do this all the time.

And it was this constant stress and this constant thinking about not just how you look, but also how they look. Cause they might be, you know, bringing themselves down, which I suppose also brings you down. But then one day our friend, this friend Ella, called it out and was like, “do you realize saying do your neck is a really weird thing to say? And to hit each other in the stomach and say, ‘put your stomach in‘ is a, is a really weird thing to do?”

But she laughed about it and it's kind of been an ongoing joke ever since. And her doing that, I mean, firstly it was a bit of a slap in the face—oh my god, this is really strange. But also, it's enabled us to be more self-aware, and to lighten up about things as well. I think we could get very serious, being sensitive, overthinking twins.

And so having a third party that can lighten that up and, and call things out in a light way rather than a doomsday kind of way was just so helpful. I think also, having a third party or a third sibling, I don't know. I think I always felt like it would just make it— you wouldn't just be this pair of kind of weird twins. You'd have another sibling relationship as well, which would be normal. Not just your weird twin thing.

Rachel: What do you feel about being twins made you weird?

Lucy: I think it's probably something that maybe started early in childhood, going to school and being kind of gawked at. And we had an experience where often, we would be trying to make friends and we would make friends, but then often if there were activities or, you had to partner up, people would just say, oh, you two go together because you are twins, kind of thing. Instead of us having the opportunity to, create our own, stronger bonds with other people. And I think that made me feel like an outsider. Like I wasn't just a person in the world making friends. I had this added kind of, person that was, holding me back from that, and I resented that. We both resented that we didn't have the opportunity to create our own friendships because the other one was always there.

You know, my nightmare is, growing up and becoming single and only having each other. And, and I think some people embrace that and you know, their life partner is their twin. They look the same. They go everywhere together. It's this really difficult kind of thing because one part of me thinks that would be so easy and it would work, obviously, because we do spend a lot of time together. We do have, you know, the closest relationship of any. But I feel like it would be almost just giving over and, I would find it—I find it sad and weird, like, you know, when twins speak the same. I think because of feeling like an outsider as a child and, and feeling like it was this kind of difference that kept me apart from other people, I strive not to become that person in my life. Even though sometimes I just feel like I know it would work and it would be fine. But I just, I don't want to, I don't wanna do it. I want to have other, I wanna have other meaningful relationships, not just with my twin sister.

We've never really fought over things. We, we are not competitive in that way. I think we've both always been...so our biggest concern has always been that the other one's okay. And that's probably our biggest shadow as well, that we can never feel fully free, ‘cause we're always worried about the other one being okay.

That is probably the hardest part for me and for her, I think of being a twin. That is the hardest. It's a feeling of constant... I just, I never feel free to just feel the way I feel. And you know, it probably started, in primary school when you start having competitive grades or sports or these kinds of things. If one of us would win, then the other one wouldn't have won. And so one of us would be happy in trying to celebrate an achievement. But the other one isn't happy because it didn't go so well for them. And so your happiness is always tainted in a slight way by your very closest partner not experiencing the same thing. And we'd always say that we were happy for each other. “Of course we're happy for you.”

But you know, on the flip side, if something's disappointed you or life's not going well, or or you're unwell or whatever, it's very difficult to feel like you can fully sit in that as well, because the other person may have won or they might have gotten a good score and you don't wanna take that happiness away from them either.

And so, ugh, it's just, it's just in all aspects of our life. You know, I got a boyfriend before Emma, and so then, I had a boyfriend, but always felt guilty in a way because she didn't. And so then your focus becomes, okay, well what can we do to, make things good for you? What can we do to, you know, we just gotta get you on the same path, too. And then, and then things will be okay, and then we'll be okay.

But life doesn't work like that. And we have just found in all, all areas of our lives, throughout our whole lives, this is the dynamic that plays out. And, you know, there's maybe been a couple of pockets where things are going well for both of us and we're both feeling like life's good. But it's hard to feel like life is just good if life is not good for your twin.

We just can't actually feel fully good if the other one's not feeling good. If I'm, going through a period in my life where I'm depressed, say, the constant conversation is just “Please stop worrying about me because, you know, I would feel so much better if you were just fine. If you were just living your life, I would feel...”, “But I can't feel better because I know that you’re feeling sad and, you know, it's so hard for me to just go and be happy when every time I talk to you on the phone, you're sad.” It's just this back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

And it's gotten much, much better. So, when we were probably 15 or 16, I got really depressed, I suppose, I was, I was just  battling with being a teenager. And Emma just—it's not like she played into it or anything, but she just, she just withdrew completely and all, everything was about me.

Everything she did was for me, she basically lived her life to try and make me, okay. So I'd come home and she would have cleaned my entire room, absolutely spotless. It's one of the things she does is, you know, if you're feeling bad, you'll come home and your house will be immaculate with flowers and a vase and a present on your bed.

And she would do that for me a lot of the time. And I just kind of thought, okay I've got the best sister ever. Like, yay. But over time realized that that was actually a really unhealthy thing for her to be doing because she was just so desperate for me to feel okay that every thought that went through her head was just, okay, well what can I do?

Her entire day would be structured around buying me the thing and spending, you know, three hours cleaning and blah, blah, blah. And then having everything set up. And, you know, she was foregoing the things that would make her feel good because she needed to make me feel good.

This is another thing that Ella's called us out on and that we, now can joke about. And it is an ongoing joke because she still does it. Sometimes if she's at my house and I'm not, I'll know that there's a likelihood I'll come home and my whole house would've been cleaned and everything will be perfect. But at least if she does do it, we laugh about it and I say, “Emma, you just cannot do this. This is so... but thanks as well.”

I suppose she's always been... she's the older and she's always been a bit the kind of leader. And I suppose she took on this kind of caring, giving-up thing for me who was more like the little princess one who was like, yes, yes, please me, me.

And I just took it. And because she was giving it more to me, I just took more of it. And around 21, 22, it got extremely unbalanced. And Emma didn't have an identity. She couldn't walk into a shop and pick out a top that she liked. She could walk into a shop and pick out a top that I would like, and she'd pick out anything that I would like, and she'd say, “Oh, these would look good on you. This would be good for you.” If you asked her to pick out something for her, she just couldn't. And it was so, so unbalanced.

It was unbearable. We were fighting a lot. we, I'd say... we'd say we hated each other.

I was just like, “Why?!” I was frustrated, extremely frustrated. And I just, I just, I was frustrated that she couldn't pick out her own clothes and that I was constantly having to... she just had no self-esteem. And it was funny because it was like that until probably we‘re 21 and she came into my room one day and said, “I've just realized that it's okay for me to like the same things as you. And I do like the same things as you, and that's okay.”

Because growing up, we'd been encouraged to be different, as I think a lot of twins are. But you know, it was, it was almost a back flip from something that mum was trying to encourage in a really positive way. She encouraged us to be different and I think oddly, it actually ended up making us feel like we weren't allowed to be the same. And because I was a little bit more assertive with what I liked, as soon as I would say “I like orange,” Emma would subconsciously go, “Okay, I'm not allowed to like that.”

And I think, because inherently we are actually extremely similar, it got to the point where there was nothing left for her. There was just nothing left for her to like, and so, she was told she could paint her room whatever color she wanted. She just couldn't choose a color because I think she felt like every color would be wrong, because I like it. And so she ended up choosing some ridiculous lime green color that she hated and had this lime green room that she hated going into. And I had this perfect room that was all the colors that I loved. And she loved it too, but she didn't feel like she could.

And subjects at school were the same. I loved art. She felt like she couldn't love art, so she would just talk herself down and talk herself out of liking it. And she'd say, “Oh, but Lucy's good at art. I'm not. Lucy's good at English. I'm not. I'm not really good at anything.”

And so yeah, when we were 21 or 22, she came into my room one day and was like, “I've just realized I'm allowed to like the same things as you. That's okay.” And I was like, “Yeah, you are. That's okay.” We've never really had major fights since then. because she's just slowly learned how to be herself and that's happened to be in line with how I am. We've definitely gotten more similar as we've gotten older, but that's okay because we understand that we are, we must just be similar, I suppose.

Rachel: Did your sense of what Emma was interested in influence what you were interested in at all?

Lucy: I think there was an element of, if she did something, I wouldn't do it. But I don't think we understood that at all. Our experience of primary school and high school wasn't that positive. And I think it's partly because there was always an undertone of discomfort or, or a lack of freedom to choose.

We tried to do what was cool or what was, acceptable as a way to choose what to do. Because choosing by what we just liked wasn't really happening. Personally, I know and I find it quite weird, but I would kind of mirror what Ella was doing. I have memories of trying to make my handwriting exactly the same as hers and trying to draw in the same way that she drew and trying to be good at the things she was good at, because I suppose she was the person I chose that was an example of someone cool and that I wanted to be like,

Just felt a bit sad for the fact that I spent my childhood trying to be somebody else because I didn't really know what I wanted, I didn't feel free to just do things the way I would do them.

I feel really lucky that we've had Ella throughout our lives to show us some of these things. if we didn't know that stuff, I imagine we'd be one of those pairs of twins who were just like, we hate each other. Life would be easier without the other one. And I really empathize with twins who I hear say that they wish the other one wasn't there, or they wish the other one was gone because it's such a horrible thing to say and a horrible feeling, but I get it. Because during those times, you know, that's the feeling that that was always around. And it stops you from being able to live your life as you would if you were a single person in the world.

I wish I was one of those people that was just kind of happy go-lucky, you know, let's play jokes ‘cause we're twins, let's trick people. We were never like that because we were always so self-conscious of the fact we were twins. I feel like it'd be easier being a twin if you were, a less serious person.

Definitely those times where we've lived apart are much less intense times in our lives and a lot more free.

When I was at my separate school, I spent a lot of time by myself and reclined a bit into myself. I suppose maybe it, um, exaggerated the little bits of us that are different. Where Emma went to school, she was a tomboy and she was loud and naughty and whereas I was kind of, much more introverted.

But at the same time there was a freedom because I was just me. There's always part of a freedom and part of a discomfort because, I was free because I was just me , but I also didn't feel quite me because I didn't have her, which is just, just too complicated.

And then as soon as, you know—I have a snapshot memory of Emma coming to my primary school once, and everyone just staring and calling her Lucy and her feeling weird about it. And then from then on everyone was like, “You've got a twin! You've got a twin!” and it just ruined that kind of freedom that I had. Yeah, it ruined, it, it, it muddies your your identity as just you. And all of a sudden it's back to people saying, “Hi Lucy, how are you? How's your sister?” This kind of thing. And it's just like, you know, the conversation's always just stopped by “Well, gotta remind you, you're twin. Gotta ask about your twin.”

And when we do come back together, and are reminded of that, it always starts to feel more suffocating. And slowly you feel more suffocated until a point where usually one of us goes, I'm gonna go live somewhere else, or I'm gonna go do something else. But then when we do do that and live separately, we pine to be together again. So, I don't know, I find it complex and difficult to work out.

I don't know how to find a balance.

Rachel: Are you able to tell when you feel like yourself?

Lucy: Probably when I am in a relationship with somebody else, because it's only mine and she's not involved. And I am only theirs. Not Emma and I. I've had a tendency to, when I get a boyfriend, to just disappear and just live this, like, I don't know—I mean, I fall in love big time, and I kind of block out the rest of the world when I do. And I think, I think it's partly because I feel a freedom when that happens to be just me.

I've always put it down to being that I am a twin and have dependency issues.

But yeah, in a relationship she's not involved and, and in a relationship, it's the only place where I feel like she's my sister. Like I feel like we have a sister relationship, not so much a twin relationship. and I love watching her and my partner be like sister and brother kind of relationship because it makes me feel normal and it makes me feel like, yeah, she's just my sister. She's not this other part of me that's always intertwined.

Rachel: On that note of just a sister, not a twin, you'd mentioned that, a little bit later in life you met another sibling. Could you talk a little about that experience?

Lucy: Growing up, we knew that dad had a child before he met mum and had us, but he had never met her.

And we, we didn't even know her name. But for some reason throughout our childhood, we'd always say, “yeah, we have another sister,” even though she was just an idea really in our heads. But I think we even then found comfort in the idea that there was somebody else. And then we would've been maybe 27, 26 and she got in contact with dad.

She said, you know, could I contact my sisters? And so we sent her this very tentative email saying like, “Hello, we would love to to talk to you if, but only if you want to,” kind of thing. And she wrote back and was just like, “Yes, yay!” We just had an instant connection and, and we emailed back and forth for a year or so probably.  Growing up as children, I think we were very similar. I see her as kind of like a combination of both of us, but without the twin stuff,

And so then we flew over to America to meet her. And we met her on Santa Monica Pier and we hid behind this thing with this bunch of flowers and sparkles and we were waiting there. And then we saw her and I was just like, everything was okay and we just ran out through sparkles all over her. And from that moment we just instantly had a connection. And Americans being Americans were all like, “You guys are sisters!” And we'd be like, “Yeah!” And it was just so.—to be seen as like sisters, not just “Hey twins!” It was like, it just felt so warm and, and comforting.

At different times throughout our visit, I'd have a conversation with her about something and Emma wasn't there, but I'd be talking to my sister about things, not just feeding into this constant, weird, suffocating, spiraly conversation that Emma and I have. It was like it was an outsider perspective, but she was also our sister. And I felt like a little sister for a start, which was such a nice feeling.

I feel like I'm just me. I'm not, me and Emma. that's probably the only other time where I feel like that, I feel like she sees me as Lucy, not “the twins” kind of thing.

I felt like I had somebody who could give me advice without, this closeness that kind of makes you never really know if... you know, I feel like Emma and my closeness, whenever we give each other advice, it's with this desperation to make things okay. So that, so that we'll both be okay.

Rachel: It sounds like there have been a lot of developments in your relationship. How would you describe the relationship you have now?

Lucy: We're both much better at calling out little interdependencies, little things that might not be healthy early so that we can keep them in mind while we live our lives.

I'd say we are pretty, I mean, we're good friends. We're we're best friends really. but we're both pretty unsure at the moment in our own lives, let alone together. And so, I'm very grateful that we've done all the working out that we have in the past because if we hadn't, I think this time of our lives would be just awful. That's where always this stuff comes up more.

You know, if I'm devastated, she's devastated. If things are going well, if life's just rolling on and things are working out and you know, good things are happening, then I suppose we feed off each other. And in that way things tend to roll on well for her too. But then at some point something will start not being great for her or not being great for me and then we'll also feed off that and roll into that as well.

And so whatever intensity of a feeling you're experiencing as one person, it's exaggerated by the fact that she's also feeling it too. And there's no respite from that. It's just much more intense. we spend so much time trying to work out how to make that less intense. But I just dunno. I just dunno how to do it.

I think we're pretty aligned and we're very close. She's thinking of maybe moving next year to live somewhere else, and it probably is just about time for us to have another one of those breaks. But you know, that's only to make it more balanced. It's a positive thing rather than a desperation to get out of this space. And it's a decision made by knowing what's healthy for us. Each of us have worked on being better at being alone, so we are definitely more balanced. Probably almost, almost balanced.  

I don't think anyone really understands those difficult complexities of being a twin.  I suppose, it's the more you can work out your own ways of managing your own self. It's like what we say is, “If you’re okay, I'll be okay.” And it's actually true. The more she deals with her own stuff and makes herself okay, and the more I do that, the more balanced we are when we’re together as well.