Themes: childhood, friendship, fighting, gender identity       


This interview has been slightly condensed and edited. 

Rachel: Please introduce yourself for the recording in whatever way you feel comfortable.

Izumi: Hi, I'm Izumi. I'm 25 years old. I actually just turned 25 on the 11th of April, so I still have my party favors up. I should probably take that down. It's about time.

I grew up outside of the city and both my twin and I went to college in Seattle and that's why we've moved here and we since stayed in Seattle.

Rachel: Great, thank you. So can you just start by telling me when and where you were born?

Izumi: I was born in San Francisco in '98, and we were born really prematurely, actually. We were born, I think, about like a month and a half early. So we were incredibly preemie. I was two pounds and my twin was two and a half pounds, and we spent the first month in the NICU.

Rachel: Did the fact that you were preemies influence how you were treated by your family or how you even saw yourselves growing up at all?

Izumi: I feel like I wasn't really super aware of it till later in life, so, so short answer, no. But it is really interesting to ask my mom about it 'cause her water broke. They lived in northern California about an hour and a half away from San Francisco. The university hospital that we were born at, her water broke. And so she had to stay in bedrest. They had to drive her down to the university hospital where they could take preemies that little. And she had to be on bedrest for, like, two weeks at least before she had us.

And I think more than it influenced how we were treated, I'm starting to learn there are, like, neurological things that can go on in your body if you were incredibly preemie. So that's been kind of cool to learn about, especially I think it's sensory sensitivity, which really tracks for me. Like, I can't be smelling weird things.

And actually when we were born, I was, I had a brain aneurysm so I almost didn't pull through. And that's something I think I've been thinking about more as I've gotten older, especially through songwriting and stuff, too. What kind of impact that has on how I view myself and my twin.

Rachel: Do you wanna say any more about that? What are some of the things that have been coming up for you around that topic?

Izumi: Mm, just thinking like, oh, if I had been not a twin and born with that condition, I wonder if I would've survived. I wonder if there's something about being a twin that could have helped me survive, or what it would've been like for my twin if I hadn't. What would childhood have been like for them and for the rest of the family.

Rachel: Speaking of childhood, can you talk to me a bit about what it was like growing up in your family?

Izumi: We were the only kids of my parents, so it was just the two of us. Mom, dad, me, twin, Our parents didn't put us in the same things or the same color outfit every time. My twin was actually telling me that they looked through old photos and for a long time they thought they were, like, the purple and blue twin. They thought I was the pink and orange twin. But they looked through photos and realized like, oh, our parents actually just swapped us out whenever. It wasn't really a set thing, which is – Sorana said it was actually kind of a paradigm shift for them. They were like, wait, I'm the pink twin too.

Yeah. For two parents, the two-on-two relationship, the twins are gonna win. You want your kids to do chores? Twins say no (Laughs). Especially if your parent set is not as unified as, well, no parent set is gonna be as unified as a twin set. So they were at a loss.

Rachel: So you and your twin would rebel together as a united front?

Izumi: Not, like, rebel, but if there was something we were, like, not cool with, we were gonna make that clear. And especially when we were older, I think there was a time when we were both like, "You guys know we had a fucked up childhood, right? And our parents were like, "What? No. Really? What?" And Sorana and I were like, "Yeah, we're gonna go if you guys try and ignore that." And they were like, "Oh shit. Okay. The twins are right."

Rachel: What are some of the memories that come up for you when you think about childhood growing up as a twin?

Izumi: Mm. Going to play at the beach together a lot. We had a friend who lived down the road, so the two of us would go pick her up on our bikes. We'd go down and say, "Hey, let's go play." And we'd just, all three of us would just be swimming at the beach all day and eating candy. Lots of candy.

Um, I remember I did ballet as a little kid, probably, like, seven or eight, and my twin did not. So Sorana would go and get Starbucks with my mom while I was in the lessons, and they wouldn't tell me that they went and got a treat while I was doing my ballet lessons, which I honestly think is really cute.

Other childhood memories, I mean, sad ones are like my friends comparing us to each other when we were little, more like middle school-y times, you know? Middle school is really not cute. It's a – whew! Yeah, being compared like, “Oh, you're the cooler twin,” or, “Oh, you're the prettier twin,” or whatever. So I felt like that was something we really were luckily able to move away from as we got older. Normal adults don't pull that kinda shit.

Rachel: When that sort of thing was happening when you were in middle school and just kids being not nice, what did that do to you and your sense of yourself? Did you start to have thoughts that were influenced by those comparisons?

Izumi: Yeah, definitely. On the one hand of, like, feeling good if you're given the compliment of being the better half, like, "You're prettier, you're skinnier, you’re funnier," whatever, whatever it may be. On the one hand, feeling glad about that in a way, but also feeling a deep sense of guilt. Why would someone say that? Just feeling extremely sad for my twin about it. ‘Cause in that sense I'd know that the roles reversed, I'd know exactly how I would feel if I were in that position because it's your twin.

Rachel: Were there certain roles or reputations that you both took on as kids?

Izumi: I think between the two of us Sorana was, Sorana is the visual arts twin and I'm the music twin, which are less roles and more of hobby things, you know? Our parents didn't really try to force us to do the same thing or compete against each other ever, which I'm so grateful for. Oh my God, I can't imagine being a twin pitted against your twin in sports or something. My God.

Sorana I think took on as a role, probably more of the book smart. I mean, both of us excelled in school and we kinda held it down. I don't really see us as two sides of the same coin or anything. There wasn't a rebel kid and a book-smart kid. We both kind of followed the same path. Just, um, Sorana did a little bit more in the way of academic rigor.

And socially, I guess, Sorana was definitely more of a cautious twin. Like, I had a time where I had friends that were a little more reckless, wanted to go out, wanted to sneak out, wanted to party, wanted to play with older kids and whatever. And Sorana was always like, "Okay, this is kind of sketchy," and so really kept me in line in a way. And I know there was a time when they, like, snitched on me. They're like, "Izumi went to go drink with all their friends." And my parents actually, um, a rule in my house before the sex talk was "the snitches get stitches" talk. So the snitching wasn't kindly received and I did not really get in trouble for that. But I think Sorana kept me, looked out for me. Definitely. Even if I thought it was nagging at the time, like, kept me safe.

Rachel: Can you talk to me more about friends and how your social lives worked?

Izumi: Um, through elementary school, I think we pretty much had the same set of friends and it wasn't really, it was pretty seamless. It was just, the twins are gonna hang out. We didn't have to figure out who's friends with who or whatever.

And we grew up in a small town anyway, so it was generally like that for most of our childhood. In high school with extracurriculars and stuff, we did have separate friend groups through that. Sorana had swim team, I had the cross country/track friends. But in middle school I think it was interesting 'cause there were times when I wanted to hang out with my friends alone or wanted to hang out with one of our friends that we shared.

But I wanted to hang out with them without Sorana. Not in the sense that I wanted to exclude them but, you know, you want some one-on-one time with a friend. And I think it was a lot harder for Sorana in those situations, especially if I was gonna go hang out with a group of people, Sorana always wanted to tag along and I didn't know how to set a boundary of like, "Hey, can it be okay if I hang out with these people, without you sometimes?" especially with small town stuff, 'cause it's like, "Wait, but those are my friends, too."

And that's really hard to figure out how to say as a kid. I never knew how to do it, so we'd definitely get in a lot of fights about it. And, and looking back on it now, I feel really sad for Sorana. I was like, oh, of course they'd wanna hang out. That's really sad. And I don't know if I give myself the same level of forgiveness of like, oh, that's actually very normal and healthy to wanna hang out with your friends without your twin all the time.

Rachel: Would you say that you two were friends? Did you think of yourselves as having a friend relationship in addition to being twins?

Izumi: Oh yeah, definitely. Uh, yeah. For example, we played a lot of my Littlest Pet Shop, you know, the little animal figurines with the magnets. We loved that shit. Oh my God, I kind of wanna go back and play it, honestly. Play imagination with these little figurines, 'cause that was the most fun. And we had our, like our characters were all developed. They had the other characters they got along with or did not get along with. And other kids would come and try and play with us and they’d fuck it all up. They wouldn't know any of the characters and it was just a mess. We did not like it when other kids played with our Littlest Pet Shops. That was a me and Sorana activity.

Kind of same with video games. We weren't really ever video game kids so we were always at the same level of being able to play with each other. But if another kid came and played, they would kick our ass so hard at video games or, like, if we went to someone else's house to play video games, we were always really trash.

But definitely friends and coming up with, I think the imagination games especially as a kid, that was what we played together a lot. Like with the hose, we would pretend that we were water witches or in Harry Potter.

And I'd say as we've gotten older, I would say we're probably even closer friend-vibes. We call it “twin time” now. We're like, "Okay, I need twin time. Let's hang out."

Rachel: Can you talk to me about twin time? What does that look like?

Izumi: Twin time – either Sorana comes over to my house or I go over to their house 'cause they live, like, 15 minutes away from me by car. So the space is good. We lived together up until 2021 when I moved out of the house that we were all living in, in south Seattle, which was what I call “Covid jail.”

But after that our relationship got a lot better once we were living in different places. Whew. Yeah. Um, space is good. Space is good, but twin time is now extra fun 'cause it's like, oh, you were having a bad day. Why don't you come over and we can hang out and, I don't know, we'll smoke weed and we can hang out. Sometimes we'll go to, like, the vintage store or just bop around. It's not really planned. It's just like, let's hang out, let's do twin time and cackle and make fun of things.

Rachel: How does “twin time” compare to time spent with a good friend?

Izumi: Maybe more relaxed, even though obviously, like, close friends you feel relaxed with no matter what. Twin time has a little more open-ended, I guess, about what we're gonna do. Like, when you plan to hang out with your close friend you kind of wanna have an idea of what you're going to do sometimes versus, if I'm having twin time, I'll just go over to Sorana's house and lay on the floor and pet the cat. And that's kind of it. Just more relaxed, more mi casa su casa, you know? I just go over and hang out. They come over here and you're kind of part of the household.

Rachel: So I wanna come back to moving from living together to living apart. But before we get there, I'm curious about this time when you were growing up and maybe like middle school, high school time. How does your relationship as twins evolve as you two are evolving as people?

Izumi: I think we fought the most in high school just 'cause we were the busiest. I think the less busy we were, the more relaxed we were. But Sorana's the 20 minutes late twin, I'm the 20 minutes early twin. If you have to get to school at 7:45, you're bound to fight in the car a little bit. When there was a lot of stress in our lives, when we were really bogged down with a lot of things to do, our relationship got more strained. A lot of it was about timing and what starts as an argument about being on time to something, or like, "Let's go, we have to go. Come on." Or, "I'm not ready yet. Gimme a sec. I don't have this, or that," kind of devolves into, "Why are you always like this? Why is this always what you do?" You know, non-sequitur argument that just kind of blows up. So, that was a hard time.

But as we went to the same college, we went to UW, we lived in different dorms, and at that time there was probably the first couple quarters I wanted to really not hang out with them too much and go find new people and what have you. And I think that was kind of a similar time of where Sorana was like, "Hey, I'm lonely. Come hang out with me. Can we do stuff together?" And ultimately, I definitely, we didn't grow apart or anything like that. And I think we started hanging out more regularly at towards the end of the first year. And then after that we lived together all throughout college. And I think having other people in the mix in our household kept us kind of on the straight and narrow, like not fighting and devolving too much, seeing how other people were reacting to things, would help us kind of cool our jets.

I think that's something we're still kind of working on, is if we are in kind of a tense moment or stressed out, it's really easy to get the other person keyed up and activated as well, and things can just devolve, like, especially in the car. I think we kind of had a breakthrough the other day. We were both really tired and hungry and coming home from our parents' house, we were both really stressed out about making the ferry back to Seattle. And we were starting to argue and we were like, wait, let's not. You can put on your headphones. I'm gonna put on mine while we're on this ferry ride. We'll just ride it out. I'll drop you off and then we won't, let's just not talk. And that's the only thing that works to prevent the fight. Being able to step outside of yourself and take a beat. I think we've both gotten better at that as we've gotten older. Less fighting, more twin time.

Rachel: That sounds like a good trend. When you were fighting a lot in high school, what did it look like to come out of that fight? Did you talk about it or did you just go back to the way things were? How did those fights resolve themselves?

Izumi: I think it was based on time, like a lot of growing up through childhood, our parents were trying to, like, nip it in the bud, like, "Don't fight, calm down. What if one of you died right now?" Just bizarre shit. Like, "What if there was an earthquake, and what if you got crushed and that was the last thing you ever said to each other?" What? God, what the fuck is wrong with parents? Oh my God, that's terrible to say to a child. So then we would kind of be forced to stop with that traumatic announcement of incoming death.

But if we had time, we would honestly dialogue it out. We would hit a peak, we'd let all the energy out, screaming or bickering at each other, like, about all this, nothingness. And then all of a sudden, the energy would be gone and we'd be like, "Okay, okay, we're resolved. Oh, that wasn't really, why are we fighting still?"

So there were times when we definitely were able to resolve and, ultimately, conflict makes us closer. I mean, not in such volume, but when we were able to resolve our fights, it was really good.

Rachel: What were your plans when you were thinking about leaving home and going to college, I know you ended up going to the same place. Was that something that you had wanted to do?

Izumi: Um, not necessarily. I think Sorana probably didn't say this to me too much because they wanted me to feel like I could do anything I wanted to.

I got into Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo, but my family just couldn't afford to send me there. The financial aid wasn't enough or anything. So I couldn't go there. And ultimately we just, we went to UW together. So, yeah. Maybe it's possible that I just don't remember them saying, "Oh, I really don't want you to go to a different school than me. Can we go to the same school?" I don't really remember too much about that time, 'cause I just remember being really bummed that I couldn't go to the school that I was so excited about going to.

And, ultimately, looking back, I am really, really glad we went to the same school and kind of entered adulthood in the same context. And we ended up in similar enough circles in school through various organizing efforts that, like, I would've been some sort of Cali surfer bro. If I'd gone to Cal Poly, I would've been playing ultimate Frisbee and uh, doing keggers. I don't know, that's just a guess, maybe.

‘Cause I know one of my friends was dating a twin and that the twin that they were dating was the independent twin and the other twin lived really far away and wanted to be way closer together. And it just seems really sad to live in a separate state from your twin if you're, if you're close. I would not wanna do that.

Rachel: What is the most time that you've ever spent apart or the most distance?

Izumi: Oh (Laughs). I think it's actually only been like a month apart from each other ever. Or wait. I think it might have been less than a month. Oh my god. I think it’s max three weeks. I went to Morocco for a study abroad and that was, I think, the most time we've ever spent apart. That's crazy. I love it (Laughs).

Rachel: Do you remember feeling any certain kind of way during that time, given it was definitely the longest you've spent apart?

Izumi: Um, for me, just the whole trip was kind of bizarre 'cause I was with the business school. I was the only environmental studies at the time, it changed paths, but I was the only environmental studies kid with a bunch of business majors. So I just felt really lonely in general. I was like, “Um, guys, this is a Muslim country. Uh, I don't really wanna drink alcohol. Why are you guys so obsessed with drinking alcohol?” So I definitely would've liked it if Sorana had been there. I think we would've had way more fun, but I wasn't particularly thinking about missing my twin. I was just missing anybody.

Rachel: When you have an experience that Sorana does not experience, do you share all of that? Is it like, okay, I have to fill in Sorana? Is that, like, an urge that you have?

Izumi: If it's something really good, like a funny story or something dumb at work, yeah. There will definitely be times when I'm like, oh, I gotta remember to tell Sorana this.

More than that, I think it happens with stuff that I see. If I see something that I know Sorana would like, I'd be like, damn, I wish I could buy that for Sorana. Or like, wow, I can't wait to show Sorana a photo of this thing that I saw that I know they'd get a kick out of.

But for trips and stuff, I think it's the same as with any family member, friend of like, you go through the photo set of what you saw and what you did and you tell them about it. It's probably more interesting for Sorana to listen to it than for anyone else to listen to it. That could be just a guess maybe. Maybe they were kind of jealous and FOMO. Or I just call them while I'm away. I know anytime I've been traveling or something we'll FaceTime. A lot. We FaceTime a lot even though we live really close to each other (Laughs).

Rachel: How often do you FaceTime?

Izumi: Probably like three times a week. Just for, like, random things. It doesn't have to be for a long time. Just checking in and saying, "Hey, what's up? What are you up to? Not much. How's the cat? Oh, look at the cat." You know.

Rachel: So I wanna touch back on the anecdote about your parents telling you to consider the fact that one of you might die as a reason to stop fighting. Was that characteristic of the way your twinship was considered in the family? Was it something to be revered or something like that? Or was that just a play to be dramatic?

Izumi: Oh, that was just a play to be dramatic and get us to stop fighting. 'Cause it was stressful and I was like, hmm, that's ironic coming from you and dad.

I don't really remember our parents ever saying anything too othering of the fact that we were twins. They would always tell us we're happy no matter what you two do. We don't want you two to have to feel like you need to do the same thing, be the same person. They were always really, I mean, they were just not hover helicopter parents in any way, shape, or form. So we were given pretty free reign to express ourselves how we wanted to as individuals.

Rachel: Did you have individual relationships with your parents, or were most of the time you spent with them shared time between you and Sorana?

Izumi: Uh, I'd say we had individual relationships. A characteristic of my kind of fucked up household was a lot of comparison of the parents, like one parent talking smack about the other.

And there was a little bit of that between us as well, parents being like, “I can't believe Sorana's room is so messy.” Or like, yeah, a little bit of that kind of thing too between us with one parent or the other. Just, like, how fucked up is that?

Rachel: What was your reaction typically when they would do that?

Izumi: Um, it made me uncomfortable. I think it depended on if I was angry at Sorana for something. I think usually it just made me feel uncomfortable. I don't really remember how I would react or respond. I just remember not liking it at all. I mean, I think I disliked it more when it was about the other parent, but if it was about Sorana, I didn't like it either.

Rachel: So I know that you said you ended up creating this melded community and sharing friends and that sort of thing in college. It sounds like when you got there you were excited to meet new people. Can you tell me about how that evolved from when you arrived to having this shared house and a shared community, it sounds like.

Izumi: When I first got to UW, I really wanted to be friends with all these cool, artsy people. And then after a while, it just faded. I realized they really weren't all that. I was like, “You guys are kind of shallow, aren't you?” And I think I had gotten ghosted or just not invited to something and I was like, okay, so I'm done with that group.

And, um, we had a friend, this is actually the craziest meet cute I think. I was in a really small class with my friend Noah, and we had met and hit it off and he went to his next class. And it was a huge lecture hall, like, UW classes are enormous. Hundreds of kids in a lecture hall and Sorana's in that lecture! Our friend had us in both two separate classes for his first quarter at UW. That's crazy. And so he sat down next to Sorana and Sorana's like, who the fuck is this? And Noah realized pretty immediately that it wasn't me, 'cause he thought it was me to go sit by for the first lecture. And, uh, yeah, he had no idea. And then later we all became friends. And we're all still friends.

And I think that kind of started us on the same wavelength of the kind of friends we wanted to have, I think. Like both of our bullshit meters kind of turned out the same of what kind of friends or who we could find trustworthy or be comfortable around. And I think largely that it was informed by how comfortable we are around each other. You want friends that'll make you feel safe and not weird or annoying or whatever.

And, I mean, Seattle seems like kind of a big city, but there's so many mutuals. So we did different organizing groups in college, but a lot of those people knew each other. And even if Sorana had made a different group of friends, they would invite me to meet the friends and then we'd all kind of end up being friends. And I think, same with my friend group to some extent. We do have different circles but it became the same as childhood a little bit, our friends are both of our friends.

Rachel: Did it ever matter who had met the person first in terms of how the friendship evolved?

Izumi: Maybe at first, like one of us would be closer with the person we met first. But over time it kind of, it changes and, like, I have a friend, or we have a friend who I was really close with at the beginning and now Sorana and this friend are much closer and hang out a lot more than I hang out with this friend. So it doesn't necessarily play out that way.

Rachel: And tell me about your experience coming to live together and then deciding to finally separate again.

Izumi: Mmm. So, if I remember correctly, it was me and someone I became friends with at the dorms. We decided, yeah, let's definitely live together. And, uh, I think I was on the fence about asking Sorana to live with us. I kind of thought, oh, I don't know if it's a good idea, but I think I remember Sorana being like, well then what the hell am I gonna do? Like, why can't I be in the house with you guys? And I think that ultimately was the right choice for sure. Yeah. We have a friend who is definitely the glue for our household, who kept us on track. I don't think they ever told us, “Don't fight you guys,” but they're such a gentle friend and such a good friend that we didn't wanna fight around them. I think that's kind of the case with living together. We learned, oh, we don't wanna fight around people we like, that's embarrassing. That's not nice or courteous to your roommates.

And so we lived together in one house for a year. Then the same house group moved and we lived together there for two years. And then after that, it was 2020 and we all moved to South Seattle which was way far away from where we'd ever lived before, like half an hour away. And it was really isolating. And we had some immunocompromised roommates and it was during lockdown, so our lockdown actually went a lot longer than most other people's. And we were so isolated in South Seattle, we didn't really know anyone. There wasn't really anything to do for us at the time. I remember sneaking away and feeling really bad for going on a run with my one friend who lived nearby.

Yeah, it was not a good time and at a certain point – oh, and I couldn't see my partner in any capacity that wasn't just social distance for, like, nine months because of the way we were living. And I think Sorana was the one to honestly enforce a lot of it more than the people who were immunocompromised in our household. So at a certain point I was like, you know what? I would like to live differently. I don't wanna be trapped in this house anymore. I need a job 'cause I've graduated with college now. And I would like to see my partner and not have to be six feet away from him. So that would be cool. And it was really stressful to get to that point and tell Sorana that. It was probably our biggest conflict ever 'cause they felt like I was abandoning them. A lot of their abandonment stuff got kicked up. And I remember when I told them, they gave me the silent treatment for like three whole days.

Yeah. It was really awkward. It was really awkward. But I also, I tried my best to give them a lot of grace. I was like, you know what, it's a bad time. We're in a really bad time right now. I remember being like, I could be mad and upset back, but what would that do? Like, I'm just gonna wait for them to come around.

And that's what worked out the best. They gave me a letter of how they were feeling and we talked it out and once I moved out they decided that they too wanted to move out. And so it all worked out. Yeah. Sometimes doing the hard thing – because I made a big change, they realized that they too could make a similar big change and chase after what they want in their happiness.

Rachel: Have there been other times when things like that have happened, or one of you has made a big change and it's inspired in the other the courage or idea or initiative to do something like that?

Izumi: I think so. Um, it doesn't feel like a big change as much as a settling into something, but Sorana came out as non-binary a little bit before I did, like a year or so before. And when they came out it got me thinking a lot more about gender and identity. And as we started hanging out with more gays and theys, I was able to just be surrounded by a world where I could explore that. And that is because of Sorana.

I remember, um, Sorana doing this art show for the queer center at UW, and I met all of their friends, all the cool queers, and they were like, oh my God. Gay twins. Gay twins. And I was like, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. Are we gay twins? Are we gay twins? But that, you know, that just got me thinking. I was like, yes, that seems right.

Rachel: Did you and Sorana talk about it or was it just like you're taking it in, you're thinking about it, and then conclusions are settling in on your own?

Izumi: Yeah, I think it was a lot of conclusions on our own. I don't think the two of us talked too much about it in the initial, just 'cause we were able to go to other people and chat about it.

And we have different gender expressions, like, I don't necessarily identify as trans, but I know Sorana is definitely trans-masc. So even within that there's differences.

Rachel: Have those differences in expression changed how you perceive your twinship or, I guess, how other people perceive your twinship, too?

Izumi: I don't know about how other people see it, but I feel like it makes us more of the troublesome twosome. I feel like when we roll up together, we're like, I have Sorana come over to my work a lot of the time at this fancy ass guitar store, and I just feel like, hahahahaha. Infiltration, infiltration. Once Sorana comes in and like, they'll sit at the front desk with me and I'll be like, what is the boss gonna do? What is he gonna do? Huh? I don't know, I feel like more of a dynamic duo now than ever before.

Rachel: Can you tell me a little bit more about that feeling, that infiltration? What is it that you're feeling when Sorana is there and there's two of you?

Izumi: I just feel like we're like little, little creatures. I don't know, I feel like we're little characters in our book. Maybe that's a little “main character energy” of us. But I feel like that when they walk into my work especially, I'm like, “Oh, that's what's up. Everybody step back and watch. It's us.” Just cause we're funny. Like, Sorana's such a goober. Before they secured themself and their identity, I don't think they were having as much fun in their life and now they're having a lot more fun. So I can have more fun too.

Rachel: How does your behavior change when you're around each other?

Izumi: I feel more relaxed for sure. It depends on the situation. If Sorana comes to my work, I feel way chilled out. Like the other day I had Sorana come with me to this rehearsal I had for a performance and I felt better about going to the event because I knew Sorana would be tagging along and hanging out. And honestly, I didn't even ask if they could come, 'cause what, is someone gonna be like, "Don't bring your twin”? That would be rude! Yeah.

Rachel: Do you think twins should always be allowed?

Izumi: Who's gonna get mad if you bring your twin? I just feel like it'd be rude (Laughs). That's how I feel. Like, what you don't think more the merrier? That's a problem. Because it just feels like, well, obviously my twin's gonna have the 4-1-1 of what's going on, and they'll be appropriate. Don't worry. They're the most vetted anyone could ever be.

Rachel: So I know that you're working in this fancy-ass guitar shop and it sounds like you're doing that music kind of thing now. Is that what you're exploring in your life path right now?

Izumi: Yeah.

Rachel: So how has your relationship evolved as you've started to take on these different identities around work and art post-college?

Izumi: Hmm, I wanna say just having different jobs in different sectors just gives us more fun chatting about our workplaces 'cause I don't know what Sorana does at their museum all day. I have no idea what they do. I have no clue. Big question mark as to what their day looks like when they're at work. I have no clue, but I know of the people who are there, which is what we end up talking about is, like, people at our work.

Um, yeah, I think it's just given us more, more to talk about, especially my work because random customers come in, I'll be like, “Dude, let me tell you about this terrible customer.” Or, they'll tell me about the panel history talk that happened at their work. And a lot of those are cool. They're just a nerd!

Rachel: Do you make fun of each other?

Izumi: Yes. I would say I'm a little more sensitive than they are. they make fun of me a little more and I'm like, “Ow, stop. I'm just one guy.” Um, yeah, no, we dig on each other and if we're both in a great mood, it's really fun. Neither of us are like this super hard roaster kind of person. We're the, "Oh, you silly nilly!" kind of dig.

Yeah. Sometimes Sorana will make fun of me when I'm really hungry or tired. They'll be like, "Stop making your Tina noises," from Bob's Burgers. I'm like, uhhh, I call it "Sad Baby Robot Hours," and I don't like being made fun of while that's happening, but I do enjoy it after.

Rachel: You said something like when you were living together and fighting a lot and you would see the way other people reacted. Can you tell me how, from your understanding, the people around you have felt about seeing twins fight? What does that mean to people?

Izumi: I think people are, like, deeply uncomfortable. They're like, oh my God, because I think people who have siblings fight in a similar way to how twins fight, but I don't know if siblings can somehow reign it in more appropriately, like only fighting at home or whatever. But we just couldn't, we just couldn't hold it in. And I guess with roommates, like, yeah, technically that is at home.

I do remember a couple times where if we fought at the house, one of our roommates would be like, “Damn, Sorana was like, really mean to you just now.” And I'd be like, “Oh really? I had no idea.” They'd be like, “What the fuck? That was awful.” Or I'm sure alternatively someone had said that to Sorana about what I had said or something. And we'd be like, oh, I had no idea. I remember being upset, but I didn't know that was that particularly fucked up.

And sometimes people would be just so deep in recoil at how sharp our bickering was that they'd have to walk away. I remember in high school especially the early morning thing is really just not a recipe for success on the sibling front. I'm sure most sibling fights started in the mornings, but I remember us getting in a really bad one on the way to school to the point where we were throwing each other's bags out of the car in the parking lot at school. And I think maybe one person came up to us and was like, “Hey, are you guys okay?” But everyone else kinda looked and walked towards the door. They did not wanna get involved. It's really embarrassing but so funny now that I look back on it. ‘Cause it was like, across the lot.

Rachel: You mentioned that the car is generally not a safe space.

Izumi: Very much not.

Rachel: Why do you think that is? What is it about driving?

Izumi: Being trapped for sure, just in the, your little, two ton can. I think a lot of it is from other childhoods, trauma stuff, but yeah, the car is not a great place. I think that's probably true for a lot of people. I mean, even when we're not together, the car is a hard place for me. I don't like to talk that much in the car so I'm not the most fun road trip buddy. Yeah, but it's definitely aggravated if we're together and in a stressful environment in the car, you know, “Oh, you missed the turn,” or what have you.

Rachel: So you've probably gotten the question your whole life, “Do you like being a twin?” And it's like, well, it's all I know. That kind of thing. But do you ever think about or question what your experience would be like if you were not a twin? Is that something that you roll over in your mind at all?

Izumi: I do, but it's so dark that I try not to go there. It's, yeah, it would be terribly lonely. I've thought about that before like, wow, if you're a twin, you will never know what it's like to be lonely. I mean, well, I can't generalize like that, but I do not know what it is like to be lonely.

Rachel: And is it because if you're lonely or you feel the loneliness coming, you can call Sorana? Or is it more that even when you're alone, you know that you have this other person with you?

Izumi: I'd say both. Like, if I'm just bored at home on a Monday twiddling my thumbs, I can say, “Hey, what's up? You wanna hang out?”

But more than that in the existential, this mortal coil, woe is me times, I can know that I really actually am never without a person who understands me or sees my intrinsic value or knows my nature, regardless of what front I'm trying to put on or have to put on for the outside world.

Rachel: When you were thinking about this conversation, was there anything else that came up for you when you cast your mind back in terms of, patterns, memories, reflections that felt like you wanted to bring up here?

Izumi: Let me look in my little book here. I think with friend stuff, especially because Sorana kept me on the straight and narrow earlier on in our lives, there was a time when I think Sorana had a riskier friend group. I saw these people and I would, I immediately get the sense of like, I don't know if this person has your best interests in mind, because Sorana had already sifted my bullshit meter of like, oh, this is a situation that I don't think is good, and they'd be very clear about that.

When I felt angry with Sorana I would say you're just being kind of hover-y, or overprotective, or feel too much of a sense of responsibility. And I didn't really necessarily feel that way. I would tell Sorana, maybe, that I didn't like this person that much or just decline to hang out if Sorana was gonna go hang out with these people. Especially, like, early in college, everyone's kind of figuring out their friendship needs and styles and what they like to do with people.

But I think because Sorana had already kind of checked me before I wrecked me, I had a pretty good sense of who had ulterior motives. I don't know if that's entirely because of Sorana's snitching as a child, but I'd say it helps. I think it's interesting that Sorana was able to, for lack of a better word, protect me in those situations, but couldn't do the same thing for their own friendships and relationships later. Maybe not couldn't, but just didn't.

Rachel: So having that third party seems really necessary to get that kind of perspective.

Izumi: Oh, yeah.

Rachel: I'm wondering, since it was just your birthday and I can see the banner behind you with both your names, have you ever had separate birthday parties?

Izumi: No. No. There was a time when Sorana had some resentments against my boyfriend. I think maybe Sorana – it didn't really matter who my partner was. I think Sorana just had some jealousy to work through around that. There was a time when I couldn't invite him to our birthday, so I did a little birthday thing with him and then I went to go hang out with a bunch of Sorana's friends who were not exactly my friends at that time. And that was the weirdest birthday we had.

Oh no, I take that back. There was a time when we kind of had separate birthdays because I broke my wrist on my birthday. Yeah. I crashed my bike in Seattle and they came to pick me up and I was, like, bleeding all down my face and stuff. So they took me to the hospital on our birthday.

Rachel: Oh no. That's one to remember.

Izumi: Yeah. It was bad. But Sorana was the first person I called.

Rachel: How have things evolved with you having a partner and now you're living apart from Sorana? What's that relationship like? Did they have a relationship with your partner?

Izumi: Yeah. They get along perfectly fine now. Yeah, it's always just really chill. Sometimes I'll ask if Sorana can come over just out of courtesy, you know, like, I don't wanna be monopolizing the household, I just wanna be nice. But sometimes I don't because I also feel like it's my twin. I shouldn't have to ask.

Yeah. But they have a good relationship now. I think when we all three hang out together, it's not really ever awkward, 'cause he's also really quiet. So it's a very gentle, gentle presence. He knows he's gonna hang back and we're gonna do our thing together. But then he'll always be listening and like, we all rode in Sorana's car the other day and afterwards Tyler asked, “oh, do you think it would be all right if I got Sorana windshield wipers for their birthday?” And I was like, that's so nice. That's so sweet and courteous. You're thinking about my twin too.

Rachel: And that gives you warm feelings inside?

Izumi: Yeah, very much.

Rachel: All right. As a final question – I ask this of everyone – when do you feel most like yourself?

Izumi: Um, I think when I'm writing a song. Yeah, that's when I feel most like me. And I wonder if it's the same for Sorana when they're drawing. I'm gonna ask them when we're done. ‘Cause you know what they said!

Rachel: (Laughs) Well, you'll hear it at some point, but you should ask them. I'm curious what they tell you. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

Izumi: Oh, just that I'm really excited to hear what other other twins have to say, too. I'm really curious.

Rachel: Is there anything specifically you're curious about learning?
Izumi: Twins who ended up living far away from each other. What's that like?